Some intresting information about Operation Overlord

[enigma]

At a 'leaving do' yesterday, which also doubled as my own and birthday celebrations for several others, i was given a copy of

Imperial War Museum: The D-Day Experience from the Invasion to the Liberation of Paris by Richard Holmes.

Havnt read through it all, just glanced over through it.

before the clean up there was a topic asking if there was Japanese troops in Normandy.
I dont remember what was stated in the topic but there is a letter from Monty to a major in the war office who he was friends with.

The letter dated for the 8th of June he states that around 6000 prisoners had been taken including Japanese ... as well as two Turks :eek:

In the letter he also says that some of the Germans had been completely taken by surprise ... they didnt think the British would ever invade, even the locals were under this impression.

Monty also mentions that the DD tanks where only used successfully on Utah and Sword beaches, Omaha as we most likly all know they sank and for Gold and Juno beaches the DD tanks were landed 'dry' on the beach behind the infantry due to rough seas.




On the page for Gold Beach ... there is a picture which shows British troops exiting a landing craft. Somewhat surprising one of them is carrying a Tommy Gun ... thought they had all been replaced by this stage with stens.




In the Deception and Intelligence section there is a German map which has all British and American units marked on it, where they belived they where.

So at Normandy we have 21st AG with 1st and 2nd armies
For 2nd Army the Germans belived General Anderson was still in command when in fact he had been given another appointment and Lieutenant General Miles Dempsey was in command.

Now i realise that we had been sending the Germans incorrect info on how many troops we had left in the UK, but i did not realise its success.
The Germans believed that the
UK 1st 5th and 6th Armies where based south and north of London,
The US 9th and 3rd Armies
It also seems they though there was a 1st AG based in London
as well as an Army based south of Nottigham, unknow number or country
as well the armies there are dozens of British, Canadian and American Corps dotted all over the Southeast of the country (i count at least 40 division and what must be brigade markers with around 6 corps markers).
also note there are around a dozen other markers around the UK as well.




The Audio CD which comes with it, it contains interviews.
There is an interview with a member of the 101st, he states that his mission that night was to make a patrol iirc around 25miles from Caraten.
He states that there was Russian Cavarly in the area! :eek:
Now ive heard about the Ost troops in the beach divisions ... but russian cavarly lol.




There is a map on one page which shows the German divisions in France, during June.
There is (faceing the Channel)
13 Static Divisions
8 Infantry Division
4 Panzer Divisions
2 Parachute Divisions

Within the centre of France and the rest of the country the map shows
12 Infantry Divisions
4 Panzer Divisions
5 Static Divisions

Out of all the units in France:
2 of the Panzer divisions were still being formed
5 of the infantry divisions were still being formed
8 of the infantry divisions were refitting
1 panzer division was refitting
and 1 parachute division was refitting

just to note based in Holland and Belgium there was another
2 static divisions
4 infantry divisions (1 refitting)
and 2 panzer divisions (1 refitting)

To note during August, in the Falaise section it shows there being
~7 panzer divisions
~ 14 infantry divisions
~ 2 para divisions




According to the 'The Leaders' section there was also a Belgium Infantry Brigade, a Dutch Infantry Brigade and a Czech Armoured Brigade ... dont know if they where follow up units or if they landed on the 1st day.




There is also a copy of a german 'radio signal log' timed at 4:15 on the 6th of June, "Thousands of Ships tracked. They're coming"




Pluto, a sort of lesser know fact about the logistical sid eof D-Day ... and the campaigning to follow, is that the allies laid 2 pipelines from the Isle of Wight, one British and one American to Port-en-Bessin. Another was latter added to a terminal near Boulogne.
However the first 2 pipelines did not become active till the end of July.




At the end of the book, it states the following losses for the German Army
At least 50 000 Dead
200 000 POWS
and 1300 tanks destroyed.

[bowman]

Never heard of this book but it sounds like it has everything

[enigma]

its 63 pages long

comes with an audio cd with veterans talking about the different parts of overlord - omaha beach, operation goodwood etc

has a page deditacted to each beach, operation etc
plus maps and copies of letters n stuff

all in all a good addition to the libary :)

[Kaos]

That bit about the Japanese soldiers is quite interesting, i'm gonna try and find more. :D

[ThomasStewart]

Dont read too much into the Japanese "soldiers" part. It is more than likely they were visiting dignatories and etache's, learning German tactical and weapon doctrines.

[metsapeikko]

Eh, russian cavarly in france, well I can understand if germans used russians in france but cavarly...

[ThomasStewart]

Sorry I also missed out the part about the Russians. Likely to have been Cossacks, if they were there at all. Its Cavalry but not in the strictest sense.

[enigma]

Yep i would also assumed Cossacks, it was somewhat surprising to hear about them ... ill re-listen make sure i picked it up probably ... and see if i can find anything on them.

[rAstha]

Cavalry unit could also mean motorized unit you know, these terms were confused very often....

[OliverMarshall]

Yea I have that book too, it's really good. ANother good one in the series is The Victory in Europe Experience by Julian Thompson.

[Elliot Green]

THe tommy gun was used thruought the war, the Stens did not replace the gun for the Americans. THe british used the stens. The succesion of the Thomson with the grease gun happened a little later. The reason that the Grease Gun was used was that it was cheaper, and it was compatable with captured MP 40 and 45 cal USA SMG ammo.

[Gien]

The dutch woot!

[BillSpargo]

Musings on your musings.

The Russian Cossacks suffered greatly at the end of the war due to many siding with the German invaders (if you look around you should be able to find colour images of Cossacks serving with the German from Signal magazine). I believe they mainly served behind the front lines in an anti-partisan role.
Cavalry is a term more often used by US military is it not? The British would more likely use the term 'motorised'.

And wasn't the Tommy preferred by the Tommies as it was more reliable. I remember one of the Canadian members here stating that they would off-load their stens as soon as possible in favour of a Thompson if one was available. I wouldn't be surprised if the soldier in the photo was an NCO.

'Turks' doesn't necessarily mean Turkish. They could be from a number of central Asian Soviet republics, and many asiatic peoples from the USSR could be confused with being Japanese as assumptions could be made as the Japanese were allies to Germany. I have seen photos of east asian PoW's in German uniforms.

On the phantom army (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/normandy/nor-pam.htm)
Deception was, indeed, a major part of the Allied campaign plan. To mislead the Germans into believing that the Pas de Calais, rather than the Cotentin, would be the site of the invasion, Eisenhower's staff created a mythical 1st Army Group, with an order of battle larger than that of Montgomery's 21st Army Group. Basing the phantom force near Dover, just across the Channel from the supposed target, the [14] planners then set construction crews to building dummy installations of plywood and canvas and dotted them with an array of inflatable tanks and vehicles. They also anchored a vast armada of rubber landing craft in the Thames River estuary, where German reconnaissance aircraft were certain to spot them. Eisenhower assigned Patton, the American general the Germans most respected, to command the phantom army and saw to it that known enemy agents received information on the status of Patton's force. Allied naval units conducted protracted maneuvers off the Channel coast near the location of the shadow army, and components of Patton's fictitious command indulged in extensive radio trafficking to signal to German intelligence analysts that a major military organization was functioning. A careful plan of aerial bombardment complemented the ploy. During the weeks preceding the invasion, Allied airmen dropped more bombs on the Pas de Calais than anywhere else in France.
To protect the date of the invasion from prying German eyes, the Allies called it D-Day, which carried no implications of any sort. NEPTUNE, the code name they used in place of OVERLORD on planning documents after September 1943, was similarly devoid of connotation.
[15] Although American commanders doubted that their ruses would have much effect, their schemes succeeded far beyond expectations. The Germans became so convinced that the Pas de Calais would be the Allied target that they held to the fiction until long after the actual attack had begun. As a result, nineteen powerful enemy divisions, to include important panzer reserves, stood idle on the day of the invasion, awaiting an assault that never came, when their presence in Normandy might have told heavily against the Allied attack.

[wfcxairborne]

I have that book. It's awesome, especially the copies of real notes.

[enigma]

THe tommy gun was used thruought the war, the Stens did not replace the gun for the Americans. THe british used the stens. The succesion of the Thomson with the grease gun happened a little later. The reason that the Grease Gun was used was that it was cheaper, and it was compatable with captured MP 40 and 45 cal USA SMG ammo.

I think you should note that no one stated that the US troops took the Sten gun on.

May i ask though, how does the Grease gun fire 9mm ammo if its cambered for .45 bullets? :confused:


Note: would like to post more but my internet is messing up ... will see if i can edit in what else i wanted to say in a bit lol :(

[css2d]

There was kinda like a "conversion kit"

off Wikipedia:
The M3A1 could also be adapted to fire the 9 mm Parabellum round by changing the barrel and bolt, and an adapter permitted the use of the magazine from the British Sten gun or the German MP40.