Hedgerow defenses

[Tough Ombre 359th]

Dug up a couple of images of hedgerow defenses. Just to give an idea to people how well defended these areas were. Remember, allies were never trained to fight in hedgerows.
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6585/img006ff7.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2447/img004rg3.jpg

[enigma]

nice post! :)

[BLind^]

yeh very intresting :)

[OliverMarshall]

also the hedges were 8 foot high.

[Volvulus]

Hedgerows must of been a pain in the booty, pretty cool drawings.

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Someone else posted this, absolutely ages ago, in the old forum. It was taken from a book by a vet or something, and he actually drew them while he was there, or something? That might be wrong, but I remember seeing em once before :D Anyway, they probably got lost in the big forum cleaning, so yea, its still a good post :)

[Tough Ombre 359th]

-R!G4M0RT!Z']Someone else posted this, absolutely ages ago, in the old forum. It was taken from a book by a vet or something, and he actually drew them while he was there, or something? That might be wrong, but I remember seeing em once before :D Anyway, they probably got lost in the big forum cleaning, so yea, its still a good post :)


Yeah that was me, I posted them back in December. With so many new member, I tought it would be nice to show them again.

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Yeah that was me, I posted them back in December. With so many new member, I tought it would be nice to show them again.

Ahh cool, yea that was a good thread, shame it is too hard to find now, after the re sorting of the forum. Good idea :)

[Wolfsburg]

Great pics! What was the trip wire for? Were these rigged with explosives or what?

[DarkCanuck]

great post, where did you get this from.
Ive never seen this before. who was the drawn by? someone in the action or years later? I thought it would be simple, but after seeing this it could be as difficuklt as attacking a bunker.

[Fallschirmjäger]

These helped the germans indeed in normandy,the slowed the allies down a lot,and my favourites the fallschirmjäger where very good in using them for defence against the allied forces.

[A.I.]

That is very interesting. I remember fighting in the hedgegrows in Close Combat 5 very well, usually getting a whole squad mowed down in seconds by an MG42 if I wasn't careful enough.

[Tough Ombre 359th]

great post, where did you get this from.
Ive never seen this before. who was the drawn by? someone in the action or years later? I thought it would be simple, but after seeing this it could be as difficuklt as attacking a bunker.


"Across the neck of Normandy peninsula, the hedgerows formed a natural line of defense more formidable than even Rommel could have contrived...the tiny pastures....were backed by drainage ditches and these the enemy utilized as a built-in system of communication treches. To advance from pasture to pasture it became necessary for us to break a path through these ramparts in the face of savage and well-concealed enemy fire. Not even in Tunisia had we found more exasperating defensive terrain. Collins called it not less formidable than jungles of Guadalcanal." ~General Bradley

The hedgerows not only made life miserable for infantrymen, they also prevented effective use of supporting armor. Tanks tended to belly up on the banks, leaving their soft undersuide vulnerable to panzerfaust. As a result, tank movement was generally confined to the deep roads, or "moats," as Balzac called them. Often, a deadly 88mm cannon awaited a tank as it approached a turn in the road.



The first sketch shows how carefully and thoroughly the German defenders prepared thier positions. Behind the built up hedgerows, they dug rifle pits and tunneled openings for machinegun positions. THis protected them from mortar and artillery fire. The terrrain also handicapped our mortar and artillery forward observers in their efforts to see where their rounds were striking and make appropriated corrections.

The second sketch shows how a platoon approaching a hedge had to cross a field about sixty to eighty yards wider. At the first hedge, advancing troops could expect to come under mortar and small arms fire. If the germans withdrew to the next hedge, the attackers came under crossing machine gun fire from two hedges back, forming a final protective line. The automatic fire also covered the openings in the corners of the fields. It was so difficult for a footsoldiers to get through the thorny hedges they at first tried to use the openings in the corner. They soon learned German MG42's covered those openings. Worse, the gaps were also well covered by pre-arranged mortar and artillery fire.

The two sketches were drawn by Eames Yates. The book from where it was taken from was, "War From the Ground Up," by John Colby.

[metsapeikko]

Thanks those are really nice pics.

[Ripper]

no wonder the allies especially the British had such a hard time in the bocage

[Dutchlike]

Those are some nice sketches m8 :)).

[Tough Ombre 359th]

Nevertheless, infantry units pressed on. At first, rifle comapnies employed their 60mm mortars against the hedges in front of them, but these proved to be pitful things that had little effect against the dug-in, concealed enemy. The 81 mm mortars fired by our heavy-weapons companies were another matter. We could employ them against the next hedge, only some sixty yards away; they were effective, for each 81mm round packed twice the volume of explosive as each round of 60mm. In time, by using these mortars and carefully probing for weak spots in the enemies defense, we were able to fire-and-movement tactics to advance. But the cost in casualties were terrible. In many ways, the hedgerows fighting was similar to the trench warfare of WWI before the development of tanks. It was not til July that some of our tanks were equipped with makeshift bulldozers blades to tear gaps in the hedgerows and make it possible for our armor to support us effectivley.

This was my grandfather's job during the war. He was a forward observer for heavy 81mm mortars of 90th infantry division, 359th regiment, DOG company. (heavy weapon company)

[BillSpargo]

no wonder the allies especially the British had such a hard time in the bocage
I don't think the bocage defences were particularly harder in itself for the British/Commonwealth forces, there were other factors which slowed the British breakout. It will be interesting to see if they're held up in the game as well.

I'm hoping that there will be mobile hedges.

"Stanley, did you see that hedge move?"
"No Les."
"But I'm sure it was over there earlier."
"Your just imagining it, get some sleep."
"But the hedge has feet!":D

[MyFingerHurts]

Any chance the allies could have just torched the hedgerows. Eliminating both the hedgerow and any defensive positions stationed there?

Finger

[BillSpargo]

Any chance the allies could have just torched the hedgerows. Eliminating both the hedgerow and any defensive positions stationed there?

Finger

Hedges if burnt would still provide an obstacle—many hedges have been built up over many centuries and are much stronger and denser than English hedges that the Allies would have been used to in Britain. If the Allies used Napalm™ or some similar weapon an enormous pall of smoke would be created over the area creating a screen to enable unobstructed movement for the Germans. One of the Allies' main advantages was air superiority but also strong artillery support. Smoke would restrict vision on both land and air. And I don't think the locals would be too happy about it.

[Vash]

thanks for the pics

and all the other scattered info on this thread

[xplosiv]

Very interesting :)
So whats the tripwire for? How does that work?

[Wolfsburg]

Yeah, I'm curious about that as well.;)

[Fallschirmjäger]

I saw later in some old documentries they used those shermans with big teeth or something that could rip through the hedgerows,i think they did not have them at the start as they where still on ships or back in the u.k maybe?.I dont know if that made any difference as bombing and the germans being outflanked later made them retreat anyway.

[BillSpargo]

I saw later in some old documentries they used those shermans with big teeth or something that could rip through the hedgerows,i think they did not have them at the start as they where still on ships or back in the u.k maybe?.I dont know if that made any difference as bombing and the germans being outflanked later made them retreat anyway.
It was known as the Cullin hedgerow cutter or device.

[OliverMarshall]

And they were just improvised Shermans with pieces of beach obstacles stuck to ther front. very effective though.

[enigma]

And they were just improvised Shermans with pieces of beach obstacles stuck to ther front. very effective though.
Wasnt it the hedgehogs they used?



So whats the tripwire for? How does that work?

well ... i would have assumed....
a piece of wire, you walk and trip on it and fall over :p

only kidding, flares, mines grenades etc ... i would have imagened, dunno if thats 100% but hey i think thats a fair guess.

[BillSpargo]

Wasnt it the hedgehogs they used?


Hedgehogs for hedgerows? it would seem appropriate, poor little buggers.:D

[Ardito]

Dug up a couple of images of hedgerow defenses. Just to give an idea to people how well defended these areas were. Remember, allies were never trained to fight in hedgerows.

Wow, great stuff! :)

I'll just add a note to the terror of the hedgerows. The bocage did not only provide advantages to the defenders. It also meant that considerably more troops had to be held up front of a given area just to provide observation. Or differently put, as such, the hedgerows also meant protection for outflanking maneuvers against a defensive position.

[DarkCanuck]

Hedges if burnt would still provide an obstacle—many hedges have been built up over many centuries and are much stronger and denser than English hedges that the Allies would have been used to in Britain. If the Allies used Napalm™ or some similar weapon an enormous pall of smoke would be created over the area creating a screen to enable unobstructed movement for the Germans. One of the Allies' main advantages was air superiority but also strong artillery support. Smoke would restrict vision on both land and air. And I don't think the locals would be too happy about it.


by ' allies' you mean England??

as well, is the book wherre the pic is take from, is it any good?

[Fallschirmjäger]

It was known as the Cullin hedgerow cutter or device.

Thanks for the info Spargonaut,i think the americans never had any of these special equipment type tanks,or not at the time of D.DAY,but the british had a whole divsion or unit i think with all matter of vehicles for difficult tasks,the funnies or something the where called?.

[BillSpargo]

by ' allies' you mean England??

I meant the allies of all countries (Brits, Americans, Canadians, French, Poles, Dutch etc.) based in Britain who would have trained in the local countryside.


Thanks for the info Spargonaut,i think the americans never had any of these special equipment type tanks,or not at the time of D.DAY,but the british had a whole divsion or unit i think with all matter of vehicles for difficult tasks,the funnies or something the where called?.

The Crab, Crocodile, AVRE (my favourite:) with a 290mm mortar) etc.

[enigma]

Thanks for the info Spargonaut,i think the americans never had any of these special equipment type tanks,or not at the time of D.DAY,but the british had a whole divsion or unit i think with all matter of vehicles for difficult tasks,the funnies or something the where called?.

The Yanks iirc refused most of the designs, they did use the DD Sherman though.
I think its been argured that if the yanks had used them they would have had less casulties, however the other side of teh argument is if they had of used they would have been lil use on there beaches ... who knows.

Btw the division was the 79th Armoured, think it was split up, brigade attachted to each invasion beach.
some links:
the tanks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart%27s_Funnies)
the division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_79th_Armoured_Division)

[xplosiv]

Aye but the DD tanks weren't of much use (from what I've read). Most of the American ones sank like stones to the bottom of the Channel :(

"Hobarts funnies" were a great success for the Brits, they came in handy in many situations - from clearing paths through barbed wire and minefields, to laying bridges.

[enigma]

Aye but the DD tanks weren't of much use (from what I've read). Most of the American ones sank like stones to the bottom of the Channel :(

"Hobarts funnies" were a great success for the Brits, they came in handy in many situations - from clearing paths through barbed wire and minefields, to laying bridges.
DD tanks on the British and Canadian beaches iirc where a success as you have stated but as you mentioned the yankie one sank.

Believe this was due to them being launched so far out from the beaches, the tide and the way they tried to drive them in. They swamped and went down :(

[xplosiv]

Makes you think... If the Duplex drive tanks had reached Omaha beach, they could have averted the deaths of many US troops :(

Just out of interest, the Germans had the same idea which they planned to use during the invasion of Britain, Operation Sea Lion:

During the planning of Operation Sealion the Germans also developed tanks with the same purpose as the Sherman DD; to provide armoured protection to infantry during an amphibious assault. The Tauchpanzer III was a modified version of the Panzer III and, like the Sherman DD, was dropped from a landing craft around a mile off-shore. However, instead of floating the Tauchpanzer III drove on the sea-bed. A rubber hose supplied the engine and crew with air and gave the waterproofed tank a maximum diving depth of 15 metres (50 feet.) making it an extreme example of a wading tank.

[BillSpargo]

Just out of interest, the Germans had the same idea which they planned to use during the invasion of Britain, Operation Sea Lion:

http://home.people.net.au/%7Ebspargo/files/tauchpanzerIII_amph_tank_02.jpg

[Fallschirmjäger]

Thanks for the info Spargonaut and enigma and yes the 79th was the unit and there comander i remember had some beret on and glasses,there units saved many lives im shure.

[enigma]

Percy Hobart :)

[Tough Ombre 359th]

instead of floating the Tauchpanzer III drove on the sea-bed. A rubber hose supplied the engine and crew with air and gave the waterproofed tank a maximum diving depth of 15 metres (50 feet.) making it an extreme example of a wading tank.

These tanks were a disaster from what I have heard. They bogged down on the ocean floor and the crew was trapped inside the tank. It was nearly impossible to open the hatch door because of the water pressure.

[xplosiv]

These tanks were a disaster from what I have heard. They bogged down on the ocean floor and the crew was trapped inside the tank. It was nearly impossible to open the hatch door because of the water pressure.
:eek: The Tauchpanzer III crews must have got the short straw..Deathwish! :(

[Fallschirmjäger]

Percy Hobart :)

Thanks yes this is him.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6074/genera4cw9.jpg

[ThomasStewart]

The tauchpanzer III hosing was a severe extension of the normal wading equipment supplied to other panzers; as TO says, they suffered from bogging on the river/sea bed. Not heard of any/many problems with escaping from the vehicles at the depth of 50ft.

[BillSpargo]

The tauchpanzer III hosing was a severe extension of the normal wading equipment supplied to other panzers; as TO says, they suffered from bogging on the river/sea bed. Not heard of any/many problems with escaping from the vehicles at the depth of 50ft.

The only way to escape would be to have an internally opening door with a flood chamber. Otherwise a hatch on the floor would suffice but if they're stuck in the mud that means of escape would probably not work.

The Tiger I could be submerge with a snorkel connected to a circular point on the engine deck to aspirate the engine. All the hatches and vision blocks were sealed, and the Tiger was still built with these even when this role was discontinued. The snorkel mount on the engine deck was also retained.

[ThomasStewart]

The only way to escape would be to have an internally opening door with a flood chamber. Otherwise a hatch on the floor would suffice but if they're stuck in the mud that means of escape would probably not work.

The Tiger I could be submerge with a snorkel connected to a circular point on the engine deck to aspirate the engine. All the hatches and vision blocks were sealed, and the Tiger was still built with these even when this role was discontinued. The snorkel mount on the engine deck was also retained.

I think you'll find at 50ft opening the hatches wouldnt be a difficult problem, the problem would be when the water flooded into the tank, which at that depth would be almost instontainious. Generally the idea was not to use such vehicles on the sea bed, and I believe the magority of tauchpanzers ended up in engineer units on the Russian front post sealion's cancellation.

[enigma]

intresting stuff,

i do recall reading something about these being used to assualt/cross a river somwhere in Russia, anyone got any info if such event(s) happened?

[ThomasStewart]

The Tauchpanzer was developed in mid-1940 for the proposed invasion of England (Operation Sea Lion). The Pzk.Kpfw. III was modified and provided with a submersion kit. The air intakes were fitted with locking covers, and the exhausts was fitted with non-return valves. The cupola, gun mantlet and hull was sealed with waterproof fabric. An inflatable rubber tube surrounded the turret ring. While submerged, the tank drew air through a pipe from a float carrying a snorkel device and radio antenna which remained on the surface. A gyro-compass was used for navigation underwater. It could operate in depths of up to 15 meters. With the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion, the Tauchpanzer III was modified for river crossing. The modification was carried out in Milowitz near Prague. On 22 June 1941, the Tauchpanzer of the 18th Panzer Division crossed the River Bug at Patulin, Russia.

[enigma]

the Tauchpanzer of the 18th Panzer Division crossed the River Bug at Patulin, Russia.
That must have been the 'something' i had read somewhere :)
nice one Sani! :)

[Wolfsburg]

I imagine it must've been intimidating seeing those tanks emerging from the water. :eek:

[ThomasStewart]

Depending upon how steep the banks were, I'm guessing the enemy had plenty of time to run away. lol.

[DavidUpton]

Well, they would most likely end up busting into flames as soon as the British ignited the oil defences on the water.

Mmm, roast Kraut.