enigma
07-27-2006, 09:36 PM
Some, what i think at least, intresting facts ive recently picked up about the 2nd battle.
882 guns started the initial barrage, it states that they all didnt open up at the same time.
Each shell was caculated so that all 882 rounds landed on the axis positions .... at the same time! :eek:
If you have read anything about the build up to the battle you may know that the divisions where able to get some training in before the battle.
From the book am reading, source given later, it states that each division, down to the Brigades and the battalions where able to practice there entire assualt several times before the battle.
Thats 4 infantry divisions and several armoured divisions.
Not only that they also practiced there assualts together with the armour and held other training excersises to imprive tank-infantry cooperation.
The Sappers also took many excersies and by the time the battle begun they had delevoped and trained in a new mine lifting doctrine which was learnt from all the armies pervious experiances.
The end reuslt being that they were able in excerises to clear a 16foot gap in a 400 yard minefield within 2 hours.
The arty officers came up with a new firing system based on the work of an New Zealand officer and where able to bring there guns into actions much more quicker.
The doctrine enabled the 8th army to bring in the Medium guns into action quickly firing into a 1200x400 square box with deverstating effect.
In the rear, as in near Cario and elsewhere in Egypt and the middle east, factories had been built. Plans and construction it would seem started during the eary 40s but where available pior to the battle.
They produced items needed for the army from trucks to optics for the gun sights, as well as that it seems that there farms also set up to feed the army, thus millions of tons of cargo was not needed to set sail to Suez freeing up cargo ships to bring other equipement and troops.
These factories where constructing 180 vechiles a day!
Between July and the battle, the desert airforce was able to take photos of the entire German frontline and in deapth every 4 days, giving the 8th army a massive boost intel wise.
Thanks to these photos they where able to find and mark down all axis arty batteries and there alt positions.
Other systesm including guys sitting on towers errected behind the front lines and looking for the flashes of the axis guns during the evenings, as well as teams who where monitoring the sounds.
These 3 menthods ID'd every axis gun.
During 2 minute periods, every Axis troop of 4 guns was hit by 10 troops of guns, 100 4.5 or 5.5 shells landed on each position.
Axis guns within Range of the 25 pounders were hit with the same feriousity.
Some Axis batteries where hit with 20-1 concentrations and 1 batter was hit by 36-1 concentration which destroyed it. :eek:
The bombardment also did not alert the axis defence like the infantry commanders had worried, it shocked the entire line facing the the advancing troops into silence and distrupted the Commuications network as well ... just as the bombardment had been planned to do so.
The Desert airforce before the battle stood at a strength of 730 aircraft, out of the frontline strength of 420 fighters only 50 were spitfires and over half where hurricanes.
The Axis had in the theater around 770 aircraft but a much lower service ability rate.
Pior to the battle the Airforce launched a bombing campaign agaisnt ports and the forward landing fields. It has stated these were not that effective destroying planes but did reduce the Stuka avilability to 50% and that on several days no a single axis plane was in the air on some days, thus they were not getting enough aerial intel.
Attempts where made to fool the Axis as to where the blow would land, decpetive messures such as the 'building' of a water pipeline heading towards the south.
Armoured divisions moving into positions in the south, then leaving in the evening ... however they would leave behind trucks with rubber tanks placed over them so it would seem they never left.
When they moved north they were covered with 'suncreens' so they looked like trucks etc.
The same happened with the arty, the guns where also desguised, ammo was burried and palced in trenches which had been dug already or in some cases years before.
The result was the Axis believed that the 8th Army would attack either in the south ... or along the costal road ... they had identifed the area where the attack would come but ...
They belived that it would take several days for build up of guns and tanks to take place before such an attack would come ... they had no idea the build up had already taken place.
The Axis defences it seems in the north was setup like a chessboard, a thing outpost line, minefileds all around, then the MLR further back with a chessboard layed out minefield infront. The empty gaps led to tanks into the path of multiple guns with flanking shots.
In the south, the minefields where designed to funnel the attacking force into positions where the defending infantry would be able to decimate them.
Strength of the Opposing Armies as of 23rd October:
.............................8th Army .......... Panzerarmee Afrika
troops ....................220 476 ................ 108 000 (53 736 germans)
Servicable tanks........1029*....................548**
Arty .......................892 .......................552
AT guns ..................1451***................1063
Mines ......................0 .........................445 358
Servicable planes ......530 ......................350
It states that the bald stats dont reflect the true status, the advantage was never as big as it would seem. It does state that roughly the 8th Army pocessed a 2-1 advantage over the Axis.
* 170 Grants, 252 Shermans, 216 Crusader II (40mil gun) , 78 Crusader III (6 pounder, weak armour though) , 119 Honey's (37mil gun), 194 Valentines (40mil gun, some prehaps armed with the 6pounder)
(should note the Crusaders and many of the Valentines are obsolete compared to the MkIV Specials - the MKIV F2 ... the version with the upgunned 75mil, and well the other panzers. 2 pounders or 40mil guns where just not enough)
** 249 German tanks
31 MK II's
85 MK III's
88 MK III Specials (upgunned versions ... most likly the longer 50mil version ... possibly short75mil version)
8 MK IV's (short 75mil)
30 MK IV Specials (longer 75mil gun)
*** 554 2 pounders (20mil) obsolete, since the AT batteries had been outfitted with the 6 pounder, these where given to the infantry battalions to give them more AT protection.
849 6 pounders (57mil gun ... but much more effective then the american 57mil gun)
Finally, the 8th army had been able to overcome the huge loss of supplies at Gazala, the shortages during July and build up quite a stockpile, however they had them more spreadout unlike at Gazala so that if the unknow happened ... they would not all be captured.
7 days worth of suppllies for 10 Corp
5 days worth of supplies for 13 and 30 Corp (each)*
500 000 gallons of fuel for 10 Corp
Arty ammo: 268 000 rounds for the 25 pounders (88mil)
12 800 rounds for the 4.5 inch medium guns
6 400 rounds for the 5.5 inch medium guns.
*Will add an order of battle soon.
Anyhoo thought id share, feel free to add stuff :)
Edit: woops forgot to add:-
Source:
Pendulum of War: The three battles of El Alamein - Niall Barr
X Corp - 1st and 10th Armoured divisions, am pretty sure 2nd Newlander division was added to the Corp but does seem to be part of the assualting divisions of XXX Corp for Operation Lightfoot.
It would seem XXX Corp was made up of all 4 assualting divisions - 9th Austrialian, 51st Highlanders, 2nd New Zealand and 1st South African.
It would then seem that XIII Corp was made up of:44th and 50th divisions, as well as 7th Armour and prehaps 4th Indian.
Those are just assumptions made on a map am looking at, bu feel free to correct me :)
I know for deff that at the time the armoured divisions other the 7th where under X Corp.
882 guns started the initial barrage, it states that they all didnt open up at the same time.
Each shell was caculated so that all 882 rounds landed on the axis positions .... at the same time! :eek:
If you have read anything about the build up to the battle you may know that the divisions where able to get some training in before the battle.
From the book am reading, source given later, it states that each division, down to the Brigades and the battalions where able to practice there entire assualt several times before the battle.
Thats 4 infantry divisions and several armoured divisions.
Not only that they also practiced there assualts together with the armour and held other training excersises to imprive tank-infantry cooperation.
The Sappers also took many excersies and by the time the battle begun they had delevoped and trained in a new mine lifting doctrine which was learnt from all the armies pervious experiances.
The end reuslt being that they were able in excerises to clear a 16foot gap in a 400 yard minefield within 2 hours.
The arty officers came up with a new firing system based on the work of an New Zealand officer and where able to bring there guns into actions much more quicker.
The doctrine enabled the 8th army to bring in the Medium guns into action quickly firing into a 1200x400 square box with deverstating effect.
In the rear, as in near Cario and elsewhere in Egypt and the middle east, factories had been built. Plans and construction it would seem started during the eary 40s but where available pior to the battle.
They produced items needed for the army from trucks to optics for the gun sights, as well as that it seems that there farms also set up to feed the army, thus millions of tons of cargo was not needed to set sail to Suez freeing up cargo ships to bring other equipement and troops.
These factories where constructing 180 vechiles a day!
Between July and the battle, the desert airforce was able to take photos of the entire German frontline and in deapth every 4 days, giving the 8th army a massive boost intel wise.
Thanks to these photos they where able to find and mark down all axis arty batteries and there alt positions.
Other systesm including guys sitting on towers errected behind the front lines and looking for the flashes of the axis guns during the evenings, as well as teams who where monitoring the sounds.
These 3 menthods ID'd every axis gun.
During 2 minute periods, every Axis troop of 4 guns was hit by 10 troops of guns, 100 4.5 or 5.5 shells landed on each position.
Axis guns within Range of the 25 pounders were hit with the same feriousity.
Some Axis batteries where hit with 20-1 concentrations and 1 batter was hit by 36-1 concentration which destroyed it. :eek:
The bombardment also did not alert the axis defence like the infantry commanders had worried, it shocked the entire line facing the the advancing troops into silence and distrupted the Commuications network as well ... just as the bombardment had been planned to do so.
The Desert airforce before the battle stood at a strength of 730 aircraft, out of the frontline strength of 420 fighters only 50 were spitfires and over half where hurricanes.
The Axis had in the theater around 770 aircraft but a much lower service ability rate.
Pior to the battle the Airforce launched a bombing campaign agaisnt ports and the forward landing fields. It has stated these were not that effective destroying planes but did reduce the Stuka avilability to 50% and that on several days no a single axis plane was in the air on some days, thus they were not getting enough aerial intel.
Attempts where made to fool the Axis as to where the blow would land, decpetive messures such as the 'building' of a water pipeline heading towards the south.
Armoured divisions moving into positions in the south, then leaving in the evening ... however they would leave behind trucks with rubber tanks placed over them so it would seem they never left.
When they moved north they were covered with 'suncreens' so they looked like trucks etc.
The same happened with the arty, the guns where also desguised, ammo was burried and palced in trenches which had been dug already or in some cases years before.
The result was the Axis believed that the 8th Army would attack either in the south ... or along the costal road ... they had identifed the area where the attack would come but ...
They belived that it would take several days for build up of guns and tanks to take place before such an attack would come ... they had no idea the build up had already taken place.
The Axis defences it seems in the north was setup like a chessboard, a thing outpost line, minefileds all around, then the MLR further back with a chessboard layed out minefield infront. The empty gaps led to tanks into the path of multiple guns with flanking shots.
In the south, the minefields where designed to funnel the attacking force into positions where the defending infantry would be able to decimate them.
Strength of the Opposing Armies as of 23rd October:
.............................8th Army .......... Panzerarmee Afrika
troops ....................220 476 ................ 108 000 (53 736 germans)
Servicable tanks........1029*....................548**
Arty .......................892 .......................552
AT guns ..................1451***................1063
Mines ......................0 .........................445 358
Servicable planes ......530 ......................350
It states that the bald stats dont reflect the true status, the advantage was never as big as it would seem. It does state that roughly the 8th Army pocessed a 2-1 advantage over the Axis.
* 170 Grants, 252 Shermans, 216 Crusader II (40mil gun) , 78 Crusader III (6 pounder, weak armour though) , 119 Honey's (37mil gun), 194 Valentines (40mil gun, some prehaps armed with the 6pounder)
(should note the Crusaders and many of the Valentines are obsolete compared to the MkIV Specials - the MKIV F2 ... the version with the upgunned 75mil, and well the other panzers. 2 pounders or 40mil guns where just not enough)
** 249 German tanks
31 MK II's
85 MK III's
88 MK III Specials (upgunned versions ... most likly the longer 50mil version ... possibly short75mil version)
8 MK IV's (short 75mil)
30 MK IV Specials (longer 75mil gun)
*** 554 2 pounders (20mil) obsolete, since the AT batteries had been outfitted with the 6 pounder, these where given to the infantry battalions to give them more AT protection.
849 6 pounders (57mil gun ... but much more effective then the american 57mil gun)
Finally, the 8th army had been able to overcome the huge loss of supplies at Gazala, the shortages during July and build up quite a stockpile, however they had them more spreadout unlike at Gazala so that if the unknow happened ... they would not all be captured.
7 days worth of suppllies for 10 Corp
5 days worth of supplies for 13 and 30 Corp (each)*
500 000 gallons of fuel for 10 Corp
Arty ammo: 268 000 rounds for the 25 pounders (88mil)
12 800 rounds for the 4.5 inch medium guns
6 400 rounds for the 5.5 inch medium guns.
*Will add an order of battle soon.
Anyhoo thought id share, feel free to add stuff :)
Edit: woops forgot to add:-
Source:
Pendulum of War: The three battles of El Alamein - Niall Barr
X Corp - 1st and 10th Armoured divisions, am pretty sure 2nd Newlander division was added to the Corp but does seem to be part of the assualting divisions of XXX Corp for Operation Lightfoot.
It would seem XXX Corp was made up of all 4 assualting divisions - 9th Austrialian, 51st Highlanders, 2nd New Zealand and 1st South African.
It would then seem that XIII Corp was made up of:44th and 50th divisions, as well as 7th Armour and prehaps 4th Indian.
Those are just assumptions made on a map am looking at, bu feel free to correct me :)
I know for deff that at the time the armoured divisions other the 7th where under X Corp.