D-Day, could the allies have been thrown back into the sea?

[enigma]

Something i read somewhere and so ive been pondering, does anyone think that on D-Day itself ... no the battle for Normandy ... there was any chance of the Whermacht throwing the allies into the sea?



Just to job peoples mem the landings where made up of:
British 3rd Infantry Division
British 50th Infantry Division
British 79th Armoured Division
8th Armoured Brigade
27th Armoured Brigade
1st (No. 3, No.4, No.6, No.45 Royal Marine Commandos and no.10 inter allies commandos) Special Service Brigade
4th Special Service Brigades (No.41, no. 46, no. 47 and no.48 Royal Marine Commandos)
As well as 6th Airborne.


Canadian 3rd Infantry Division
2nd Canadian Armoured Division


And last but not least:
US 1st Infantry Division
US 4th Infantry Division
US 29th Infantry division
2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions
The 82nd and 101st Airborne divisions.
(Note, cant find any info on supporting armour for these divisions ... which made it ashore)

So 6 infantry divisions, 3 para divisions, the equivalent of 2 armoured divisions ... backed up by the RAF, RCAF, USAAF and the navies of all invloved.

(source, several books and the wiki)

Facing off agaisnt:

716th Infantry division, spread over 3 beaches (British and Canadian)
352nd Infantry (full 9 rifle battalion division unlike most German divisions at this point) - well trained and inc alot of vets, spread over it seems only Omaha beach area
709th Infantry division (static), alot of Ost troops and spread over the Cotentin Peninsula, also covering Utah

6th para reg, defending carentan - no involved with replusing the landings
91st Airlanding - reg inf div, few heavy weapons, located in the interior of the cotentin peninsula - seems it was defending Cherbourg.

In the area of the invasion:
243rd Infantry Division (static) - protecting western side of Cotentin
30th mobile brigade - 3 bicycle battalions
Luftwaffe units stationed all over the show too.

mobile reserves:

21st panzer, deployed around east side of Caen - did try and get into the action early but where halted by 6th Airborne, tried again during the evening ... mostly replused by either the British infantry or the airborne ... however some units did make it through to the sea.
12ss stationed somewhere to the SE (havnt got the foggest where though)

Source: wiki ... too lazy atm to look up anything else.

So we 3 Infantry divisions, spread out, some weak others ... well pretty hardcore. Backed up by minefields, wire, bunkers, trenches AA guns, AT guns etc etc .... but all in all a very thin defenseive line.
However there was additional arty positions etc etc



So whats peoples opinions ... anyone reckon that the German defences on the beaches and within that first day ... could have thrown back the allies?

[75thDeadMan]

I think had romal been there and had some of the generals had control of the panzer divisions (as opposed to hitler being the only one who could move them) the axis would have definatly had a much better chance. if that was enough to decide the battle I can't say.

[Sgt So and So]

I think had romal been there and had some of the generals had control of the panzer divisions (as opposed to hitler being the only one who could move them) the axis would have definatly had a much better chance. if that was enough to decide the battle I can't say.
If they had some arty or 88s in the bunkers instead of just MGs, THEN they would've had a chance. Also, if Rommel was there, he would've totally schooled them.:D

[enigma]

If they had some arty or 88s in the bunkers instead of just MGs, THEN they would've had a chance. Also, if Rommel was there, he would've totally schooled them.:D
Rommel had ordered and planned the defenses iirc, and did drive back to take command of his Armee after hearing of the invasion.

As for cannons in the bunkers, there was. They where set up iirc so they provied flanking fire down the beaches to take out tanks etc or whatever landed. Setup in such a way that naval attack would not be able to Id the gun or where the firing was coming from.


This seems to be an example,
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60Anglais/images/histoire/popup/h3_p2_01_USA_01.jpg
Supossidly or still did at the time of the photo an 88.
Supossidly another,
http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60Anglais/images/histoire/popup/h3_p2_01_USA_02.jpg
(Note: although all of them would not have had 88s inside, they where mixed up with 50mil and 75mil guns)

The beach defences where also backed up by arty positions inland, ala The Merville battery:
4 150mil guns
linky to a pic (http://www.ornebridgehead.org/Photos1/Pic_MervilleCasemate1.htm)

[2ltben]

Rommel just wasn't there for the first 24 hours, and even if Rommel was there he'd still get no end of hell from von Rundstedt and OKW about suspicions of invasion. People forget that von Rundstedt was Rommel's superior.

[Hamilkar]

The only Panzer division, the 21st that took action on the 6th, reached the coast between Juno and Sword ( darn I hope i got it right), But since they had no support they were forced to withdraw.

The thing is, the allies put 170 000 men on shore by the First day.
Even if Rommel gets the authority to mobilize the Panzer immediatly, it might've been too late.
Although I am sure the campaing would've been even more bloodier and longer.
Also, The Germans lacked aircraft in Normandy.
And even If they would've plan to redeploy some to support the panzer, Bagration would've cross this plan.

I do not think the panzers would've push the allies back, but would've buy time.

[Manstein]

I find it hard to believe the Allies landed 170,000 men on D-day alone, if 21st Panzer had been allowed to hit the beaches ASAP, they might've closed one off, maybe, anything more than that is a guess, but I doubt they could move on through the immense naval and areial bombardment, in the end if would only have slowed the advance, and not stopped it outright

[Tough Ombre 359th]

I also agree that allies would have not been thrown back into the sea. Allies had air and artillery superiority. Things were thrown into chaos for the Germans on D-Day. Even if Rommel was there, he could not have thrown the invasion into the sea.

[enigma]

I find it hard to believe the Allies landed 170,000 men on D-day alone,
101st - 6000 men
82nd - 7000 men
6th - unknown but around5-6000 men


Sword Beach - around 29000 men
Gold Beach - around 25000 men
Juno - around 15000 men
Omaha - think it was around 35000 men region
Utah - around 23000 men

Thats just under 150 000 men, but saying that i dont know if the above figures also state the figures for teh follow up forces which started landing during the day.



Anyhoo on with the discussion, am intrested to see what everyone thinks :)

[OliverMarshall]

Rommel's whole idea was flawed. Gudurian himself came and told him from his experiences in Italy. The warships could decimate any major armoured counter attack within their range. Gudurian wanted to hold all the panzer divisions well out of range of the warships in some stop lines and then halt and destroy the attack there and when they are on the back foot rush forward and destory them with no resistance. Better idea than Rommels. However assuming we're going with rommels idea then considering the amount of air power the allies packed plus the scale of the landings and the drops behind enemy lines, his panzer divisions wouldn't have been able to cope with allied airpower unless there was no land resistance, as was Gudurians idea.