Soviet-Finnish War

[Katulobotomia]

take a good look at the large Wikipedia article of the Soviet-Finnish-War. It is amazing stuff to read.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisota
And the war followed right after: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War

Best parts: "One of the most remarkable losses in military history is the so-called "Raatteentie Incident," during the month-long Battle of Suomussalmi. The Soviet 44th Infantry Division (ca 25,000 troops) was almost completely destroyed after marching on a forest road straight into an ambush of the Finnish "Osasto Kontula" (a unit of 300 men). This small unit blocked the advance of the Soviet Division, while Finnish colonel Siilasvuo and his 9th Division (ca 6,000 troops) cut off the Soviet retreat route, divided the enemy force into smaller units and then destroyed it bit by bit. The Soviet casualties amounted to up to 23,000 men, while the Finnish lost around 800 men. In addition, the Finnish troops captured 43 tanks, 71 field and anti-aircraft cannons, 29 anti-tank cannons, APVs, tractors, 260 trucks, 1170 horses, infantry weapons, ammunition, medical and communication material as war booty.

"Due to Stalin's ethnic paranoia, the vast bulk of the Red Army's troops that fought in the Winter War were taken from the southern regions of the Soviet Union, since it was Stalin's opinion that Russian troops from the area immediately bordering Finland could not be trusted to fight against the Finns. These southern Red Army soldiers had absolutely no experience with Arctic winter conditions and virtually no forest survival skills, let alone fighting skills. On the other hand, Finnish troops had only to wear their own normal winter clothing in many instances and had spent most of their lives in the forest, as the vast majority of Finns were rural dwellers until the 1950s. The weather during the Winter War was one of the three worst winters recorded in Finland."

"The air war during the Winter War saw Finland invent the "finger four" formation style of air combat (four planes, split into two units of two planes, one unit flying low and the other high, with each plane fighting independently of the others yet supporting their wingman in combat) that was not only superior to the Russian tactic of three fighters flying in a delta formation, but was later adopted by every major combatant in WWII and is still in use today. This formation and the credo of Finnish pilots to always attack, no matter the odds, contributed to the failure of Russian bombers to inflict substantial damage against Finnish positions, cities or population reserves."

the few tanks we had (the symbol at the front isnt the Nazi one btw) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/StuG_III_Ausf._G.jpg

A lot of content there, this is by far the most amazing story of WW2 I have ever seen.

[75thDeadMan]

the only game i can recall that even touched on this was Forgotten Hope. I think they had something like one map. definatly one of the more underated events of WW2. I think that this could be a pretty sweet expansion to 1944. Certainly hasn't been done in a professional game before, thats for sure.

[enigma]

I've always found the Winter War rather intresting although know lil really on the subject, will have a read through the articles later, look like its gonner be good :)

must say the vision i have of the war there is from something i read once of, a Russian column being caught on a lake which had frozen over, hit by spotlights in the trees then had arty drop on them ...followe dup by Finns with SMGs sking through them.


Casualty estimates vary widely — from 48,000 killed, died from wounds, and missing in action, as quoted by Soviet officials immediately after the war, to 270,000 according to Nikita Khrushchev. The most reliable current estimate puts it to 126,875[3]. Finland's losses had been limited to around 22,830 men[10].

from the wiki link supplied, bloody hell! :eek:

never realised that the Reds took such huge losses, i knew they took heavy losses but bleeden hell!
Truly was a humiliation.


the few tanks we had (the symbol at the front isnt the Nazi one btw)
Stug III's?
Tis the cross of freedom and good luck no?

[Katulobotomia]

Stug III's?
Tis the cross of freedom and good luck no?
Yup, it was used in ancient rome too. Something to do with the sun or something at the time. Yea i heard stories from my grandfather about his father fighting in the winter-war. He said his squad of 12-20men completly destroyed a Soviet Convoy by the ´motti´ tactic, which basicly means "bottlenecking" the enemy and slaughtering them. They destroyed the convoy of almost 30-40 men (not sure about the numbers because my grandfather doesnt remember accurately that either.) and got a few tanks and a lot of supplies and weapons as war loot. They didnt loose single man, but almost every Soviet soldier were killed and few surrendered. (Finnish military is known as one of the few armies that have never executed a war prisoner or traitor [atlest not officially, who knows what happenes at the forrests ;) ]) He also found a fully working air-rifle from one of the Soviet Supply boxes, which he later gave to his son, my grandfather and later my grandfather gave it to me. Strange thing is that it is handmade air-rifle from China. The metal parts are a bit worn out and a part of the gun is broken, but it still works perfectly. It is powerful, shoots through tin cans and has an broken iron sight which still is usable and VERy accurate. I can post pictures of it later .



must say the vision i have of the war there is from something i read once of, a Russian column being caught on a lake which had frozen over, hit by spotlights in the trees then had arty drop on them ...followe dup by Finns with SMGs sking through them.


f
I remember that too. Cant recall the name. It was a total loss for the Soviets. most of the Soviet troops fell into the water after the artillery fire and rest of them were shot dead. If I remember there were a Soviet base at the other end and a Finnish base at the other (a lot smaller than the Soviet one). The finnish troops raped the Soviet base everytime someone stood up or tried to attack them. At the end after many reinforcments the Soviets still kept loosing men and finally when The few Finnish troops assaulted the base they were shocked of the shear number of dead Soviet troops they had killed. Troops were pilled up in large stacks and few still alive. The Soviets thought they were againts many hundred men and realized they had lost to only ~30 men sitting in foxholes firing SMG´s.

[enigma]

I remember that too. Cant recall the name. It was a total loss for the Soviets. most of the Soviet troops fell into the water after the artillery fire and rest of them were shot dead. If I remember there were a Soviet base at the other end and a Finnish base at the other (a lot smaller than the Soviet one). The finnish troops raped the Soviet base everytime someone stood up or tried to attack them. At the end after many reinforcments the Soviets still kept loosing men and finally when The few Finnish troops assaulted the base they were shocked of the shear number of dead Soviet troops they had killed. Troops were pilled up in large stacks and few still alive. The Soviets thought they were againts many hundred men and realized they had lost to only ~30 men sitting in foxholes firing SMG´s.
Jeez it did really happen! :eek:
That is shocking!
The story of the base and the convoy your relative and his buddies got as well ... :eek:


Is it true that the soviets only started gaining ground after bringing in overweling numbers and the Finnish army started to run out of ammo?

(i did read a site once which had info on that 20mm hand cannon :p AT rifle you guys used! ... mean mofo looking thing, the site also stated how the Finnish factories where manufactoring satchal charges and petrol bombs by the bucket load ... am sure it also stated that those charges ... the smaller ones weighed like 6kg and the bigger ones something like 12kg, a trooper would drop his rifle pick one up leg it onto the road plonk it on a tank moving slow and in a columns nose to tail, leg it back and watch go boom!)


Yea piccies of the airfile would be great if you could get them :)

[OliverMarshall]

Yea, it was a terrible war. Fought in freezing conditions and no preperation on russia's side. It did howvere have numerous good effects. After the end of the Winter War the Russians introduced the first sub machine guns which otherwise wouldn't have happened, there was a major reorganization of the Russian army and it gave the Russians valuble battle experience. All this would halp in 1941. On the otherside WWII could have been fought earlier since Britain and France were gathering forces to send to FInland. This might have led to the Allies uniting with the Axis against the Comitern. A completely different War. Probably shorter and may have been more preferable as Russia would have been a first world nation afterwards because of the end of the Soviet Regime, also Nazism against Jews many not have happned since they would have been allied with the Allies. It would hav ebeen like II Crimean War. Anyway that's not what we're talking about. Back to topic and go Suomi!:D

[Wolfsburg]

I've always found the Winter War to be interesting, as well. There was a pretty good Finnish-language movie called "The Winter War" that came out in the early 90s. I enjoyed it...

[enigma]

The Ruskies were not employing SMG's during the late 30s and '40?

Did they only go in basically with mosin nagants? :eek:

[Katulobotomia]

Jeez it did really happen! :eek:
That is shocking!
The story of the base and the convoy your relative and his buddies got as well ... :eek:


Is it true that the soviets only started gaining ground after bringing in overweling numbers and the Finnish army started to run out of ammo? true ..we started to loose when Soviets basicly brought everything they had on us, while we were fighting with almost none ammo and supplies. Little help came from Sweden, German (which later turned on us, thanks guys) and French. And if I remember correctly Brits helped us too, but the help was little since it is said that even when they deployed troops to Finland to "help" us, they were told to avoid any contact with Soviet troops (thanks again!), only securing factories, iron mines and other facilities and roads. Since we didnt have even near enough eguipments we had to bring hunting rifles and ammo, civilian clothes and other supplies to be used in battlefield. I heard they even used AIRRIFLES to fight when no real ammo was left. They didnt do any damage but were there just to look like we were shooting at them when only few guys were actually firing real ammo.


(i did read a site once which had info on that 20mm hand cannon :p AT rifle you guys used! ... mean mofo looking thing, the site also stated how the Finnish factories where manufactoring satchal charges and petrol bombs by the bucket load ... am sure it also stated that those charges ... the smaller ones weighed like 6kg and the bigger ones something like 12kg, a trooper would drop his rifle pick one up leg it onto the road plonk it on a tank moving slow and in a columns nose to tail, leg it back and watch go boom!)
cant recall anything about the 20mm handheld(?) cannon yet, but the satchel charge was commonly used. Usually just made out of different broken bombs or other explosives. A homemade bomb if you like. Stick 4 into a stick and lie in a ditch near a road, wait for a tank to come by and set the bombs and stick the stick under the tank and BOOM the tank is unable to move. Throw a few Molotovs and the crew is forced to come outside and a few quick shots and the tank is dead. When mines were available they were better than the bombs when used the same tactic but anything goes in love and war. We fought more stealthier than Soviets. We tried to stay undetected as long as possible, then attacking at the same time killing many Soviets in the first few seconds making them panic.
They teach us to ALWAYS use the moment of surprise and not to assault after when your location is compromized and/or detected, hold your ground or retreat. Assault is only used when surprise attack is possible and when you are surrounded and trying to break out of it. Never run or sprint cover to cover more than 3 seconds and always keep prone in fights. Never shoot in automatic and always aim every shot. Shoot the most dangerous enemies first and keep a solid track of your fellow soldiers in the forrests to avoid friendly fire. Never leave your rifle more than 3meters away from you. It is better to stay down and shoot aimed shots than to rush and spray everywhere. Each man should aim and shoot at a different soldier than to make everyone shoot the same ones. This can make the enemy loose a large number of men in a surprise attack in just 1-10seconds. Most of our tactics are based on stealth and not assaulting, staying cover and creating cover, using them and how to act as a team, knowing what your friends are doing even when you dont see them and acting as they would act in their position.

[Sgt So and So]

the only game i can recall that even touched on this was Forgotten Hope. I think they had something like one map. definatly one of the more underated events of WW2. I think that this could be a pretty sweet expansion to 1944. Certainly hasn't been done in a professional game before, thats for sure.
If you have Operation Flashpoint, then get the FDF mod. Essentially turns it into Fins vs Ruskies.:D

[Katulobotomia]

The Ruskies were not employing SMG's during the late 30s and '40?

Did they only go in basically with mosin nagants? :eek:
Hmm...never heard of Russians not using SMG´s in the war. I know that they used automatic guns while Finns never shoot automatic fire. Dont know what guns they were, but we used SMG´s, only today we have rifles as our main weapon. The 7.62 RK 62 and RK 95<3<3<3<3 http://world.guns.ru/assault/valmet_76_223.jpg
My WW2 air-rifle http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2744/img5773qf8.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2275/img5774wu6.jpg

[enigma]

looking round the net, was the Suomi M-31 SMG (which the ruskies based there ppsh41 off) the main SMG of the Finnish army during the Winter war?

The 20mm hand cannon i refered to was only a joke, believe it was the L39 Lahti AT rifle ... although ive read only a few made it to the front.


I can understand the 'thanks' bit to the French and British ... at the time they where more intrested securing Norwegian, Swedish and it would seem Finnish mines etc so the Germans and possibly the Russians couldnt have them.

As for the Germans turning there backs on you, wasnt that after Finland allied with Russia?

[Katulobotomia]

looking round the net, was the Suomi M-31 SMG (which the ruskies based there ppsh41 off) the main SMG of the Finnish army during the Winter war?

The 20mm hand cannon i refered to was only a joke, believe it was the L39 Lahti AT rifle ... although ive read only a few made it to the front.


I can understand the 'thanks' bit to the French and British ... at the time they where more intrested securing Norwegian, Swedish and it would seem Finnish mines etc so the Germans and possibly the Russians couldnt have them.

As for the Germans turning there backs on you, wasnt that after Finland allied with Russia?
I think you should refer Russia as Soviet Union, since Russia was created just recently.
uhm...I dont think we never ever ever Allied with Soviets at any point after the wars, but I have to state that I dont know all the facts correctly yet, but allied with Soviet? HELL NO :D They only signed the peace papers and so on. And we were forced to pay them a lot of money, iron, supplies and other valuable things because of the war that they said WE started. Everyone knows the Soviet war was illegal in every way and we had to pay for it. The Germans (the ´thanks´ bit I ment for only for German) turned on us (I beliefe) at the end of the wars when they were retreating our soil. They raped and burned countless towns and villages as they left, including my hometown Rovaniemi :,( But then again, some of my facts might be little "off". But I know that they turned on us and burned our towns, not sure when and why. Im sure it is said somewhere on the article but I havent had the time read it all yet.

[sid]

This is the only time when two democracies have ever been at war with each other (Uk and Finland). And about swastikashttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Adoption_of_the_swastika_in_the_West

[enigma]

Got given this link by a dude on the Battlefront forums called John Kettler

Sturmi (http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/axis/finland/sturmi1bg_1.html)
Gives info on the Finnish Stugs, good stuff in my opinion.

[OliverMarshall]

Nice link!

[enigma]

Heres another great link

Finnish AFV throughout the war (http://www.andreaslarka.net)

They captured quite alot of tanks off the Soviets it would seem, and they also purchased quite a few off the Germans in but never used in action MK IVs.
Shows pictures of Stugs in there orignal paint scheme and pics of them with the logs etc on them.


Also did you know, dont know if this was mentioned above ... the work browser is crap and i cant view much or look around the net much lol i think there trying to tell me something.
However as a promise to the Allies to deal with Finland when the West landed in France, on June 9th they launched 500 000 men and hundreds of tanks across the border.
Pushed the Finns back across there original defence line but stalled upon there much better constructed line, there they where held it would seem till the truce and Finland join in on the allies side.

From the Sturmie link,

Finnish Sturmis destroyed a total of 87 Soviet tanks in June and July 1944, while losing only eight of their own vehicles.
Around 40 taken out alone by arounnd 5 tank crews :eek:

[BillSpargo]

I love anything on a Sturmgeschutz III.:D
Did you know there is only one known StuG IV remaining and it's rusting away outside in the grounds in a Polish Military Museum.:mad:

Here's a link containing an article on fighting Russians in winter including the Winter War: HTML (http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Chew/CHEW.asp), PDF (http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/download/csipubs/chew.pdf)

[75thDeadMan]

never really liked the tank but some good finds none the less