Tank paint scheme discussion

[enigma]

Have moved all the discussion on the tank paint schemes here, so that the other topic is solely about the Ardennes Offensive.


-R!G4M0RT!Z']I never realised the Jagdpanther in BoB was a T-55! But then again, I never really looked at the wheels, consdering you don't see it for long. Haha, I've seen a real working one of them aswell :D
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010067.jpg
Pink? :confused:

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Pink? :confused:

Its not really pink pink... Its more like that red which the Germans used, but the lighting may not have done it justice.

[sid]

They did have a pink colour scheme. It was used in Africa I believe. It's meant to be good camoflague at dawn.

[enigma]

They did have a pink colour scheme. It was used in Africa I believe. It's meant to be good camoflague at dawn.
Really?

Ive only seen Grey/black (of course worn and dusty) and the tan colour it seems they where painted in ala link (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/PanzerIII%28Afrika%29.jpg).
Got a pic (other then the one above) which shows this? am really intregied :)

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Yea, here you go.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010058.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010130.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010203.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010152.jpg
I'm not sure if that was the colour you meant, but it is often incorporated onto the sandy background, and usually has a bit of green aswell.

Edit 2: Ahh, the Sand colour and the Red/Pink was Eatern Front camouflage.

[Lordwatson]

-R!G4M0RT!Z']I never realised the Jagdpanther in BoB was a T-55! But then again, I never really looked at the wheels, consdering you don't see it for long. Haha, I've seen a real working one of them aswell :D
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010067.jpg


IS that the driver's slit just visible behind the main gun?

[enigma]

IS that the driver's slit just visible behind the main gun?
Yea it is (although from what ive just it read it stats he sat in the left of the tank! :confused: )

Nice one R!G4M0RT!Z :)

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Yes, the little slit, which is mostly covered by the gun, in this picture, I believe to be the Drivers viewpoint.
Edit: Sorry, enigma just beat me

[sid]

i'm sure someone posted some pics of a pink kubelwagen ors omething on the DoD forums. I'll try to dig it up.

[enigma]

Ah the purple colour, hmm i dont think ive seen that in use before but hey learn something new every day. Nice one guys :)

As for adding bits of green in, the Brits also did that, some examples (1 or 2 are not photos but still show the general camo design in use)

link (http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/Equipment/Armour/matilda_desert_colours.jpg)
link (http://www.modellbau-universe.de/uploadfiles/original/ax_01318.jpg)
link (http://static.flickr.com/43/124917268_8b6766e63e_m.jpg)
link (http://www.1jma.dk/Pics/hardwarepics/new/M3%20LeeGrant_resize.JPG)

To think of all the colours you can think of to blend in with the desert Blues and Greens .... but hey ive heard they worked, so no knocking it lol :p

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

I had never seen this camouflage before, and wondered if anybody else knows anything about it.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/P1010119.jpg
Could it just be another take on the similar ones I have posted? It just looks different to the others...
Edit: Also, enigma, from what I have read, the camouflage on the Jagdpanther would have been used on the Eastern Front, which kinda makes sense, seeing as how the Jagdpanther was not in production during desert campaign, was it??
I will help anytime I can enigma :p

[sid]

Can't find the picture.. I'll keep looking.
Edit I don't think they did put a picture.

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Ahh, ok, it doesnt matter, but thanks anyway :)

[enigma]

This may shead light on the camo question for the Tiger:


In addition, starting in spring of 1942, vehicles used in the southern parts of Russia, were often applied with tropical camouflage, similar or identical to those used in North Africa. In March of 1942, both colours used in North Africa were replaced by brown (dark sand) (RAL 8020) and dark (panzer) grey (RAL 7021). Brown was to be used to cover 75% of the vehicle and dark grey the rest.


On August 19th of 1944, OKH ordered that dark yellow (RAL 7028) was to be factory applied as the base colour with dark olive green (RAL 6003) and red brown (RAL 8017) for use in camouflage patterns. In addition, to those three main colours, small yellow, light grey or white spots were applied on green and brown areas, while small green spots were applied on dark yellow areas. This overall camouflage scheme was known as the "ambush" scheme so common on late war Panther and Tiger II tanks. As with any other scheme there were numerous variations depending on the unit, its location and supplies available


So it may be Factory Yellow ... repainted in a tropical colour for the Southern front? - just a guess.


Think this shows the Ambush scheme
link (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gallery/ptgal.htm)

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Yea, I think that could be it enigma. That is some interesting info you have found, may I have a link, because it seems quite useful :) Also, that Panther is in the Ambush scheme, as is this, and a few others I have posted :)
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f148/rigamortiz/Beltring/P1010058.jpg
So, was the Ambush scheme used on all fronts, because I originally thought the mixture of Red-Brown, Sand, and Olive Drab was used on the Eastern Front alone, but I think it must have been used on all fronts, and your quote definately complies with that :)

[enigma]

El Linko (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/camo.htm)
:)

Yea it would seem that 'Ambush' was applied to all tanks, however major variations would be seen. Different painting styles, wear and tare, battle marks, dust etc



Edit: reading through found this:

the winter of 1941/42, all German vehicles on the Eastern Front were provided and applied with washable white winter camouflage paint that was used to cover all the visible areas. In the spring, the paint was to be washed off revealing original dark grey.
Lol, i remember being mocked for asking this type of question.
It went along the lines of during the winter were tanks painted paint (hey i was naive when i asked this) to be mocked with people talking about the painting brigades which went around ..... well bugger me sideways i was correct to think that way and ask!

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

El Linko (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/camo.htm)
:)
Thanks for the link, I'll have a thorough read through it in a bit. :)


Yea it would seem that 'Ambush' was applied to all tanks, however major variations would be seen. Different painting styles, wear and tare, battle marks, dust etc
Yea, that does make sense. :)


Lol, i remember being mocked for asking this type of question.
It went along the lines of during the winter were tanks painted paint (hey i was naive when i asked this) to be mocked with people talking about the painting brigades which went around ..... well bugger me sideways i was correct to think that way and ask!
Hahaha, yea I remember reading quite a while back about the White Wash the tanks received during Winter. I think all nations did this, at least most, anyway. :D

[BillSpargo]

The colour and patterns of repainted museum pieces are wholly unreliable for referencing camouflage. Also period photographs don't reproduce colour correctly. Paints can darken or fade with time.
Btw, the British LRDG vehicles were often painted pink.

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Well, usually camo on vehicles in Museums is based upon camo of a tank, not necessarily the one it is, but usually one that fought in WW2. I'm sure that museum's wouldnt use incorrect camo.

[enigma]

Seen this a few days ago, thought i might as well post this here. Tis not tanks but the sort of different smocks the panzergrenadiers wore.

water and splinter (mod artisits inpression of them (the modders are usally very spot on) for the game combat mission)
http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=splinterwaterwx6.jpg

I knew there was mulitple patterns but though they were based off one main one (much like the different variations of the 'ambush' camo for example)

[ThomasStewart]

Have moved all the discussion on the tank paint schemes here, so that the other topic is solely about the Ardennes Offensive.


Pink? :confused:

lol jesus, its not pink its red oxide. Its the base colour that was in primary use throughout the war. Late war vehicles - I.E. our Jagdpanther here - were painted with red-oxide base coats and a dunkelgelb (dark tan) overcoat. Crews were then issued with paints and told to get on with the camo paint scheme - which happens to be 3 tone's (post Normandy the tones became more detailed and varied depending upon whether the crews could get more than 3 tones of paint). The tone we see above is a 3 tone camo scheme using:

dunkelgelb
Red oxide
white or a light tan to break up the red oxide.

[enigma]

lol :) (it does look pink! :p )

i thought that the primary base colour was Gray, early war, yellow mid war and late war was the red ... possibly green too.

[ThomasStewart]

lol :) (it does look pink! :p )

i thought that the primary base colour was Gray, early war, yellow mid war and late war was the red ... possibly green too.

Red oxide was the base coat throughout the war. By 45 they were sending tanks to units that only had this colour applied....

Early war Panzergrau (grey) was the over-coat, mid war this was dropped by alot of vehicles for dunkelgelb over-coat....you then ended up with your 3 tone camo schemes 43-44 and I think up to 4 tone 44-45.

[enigma]

Wait am confused now,

extract from Achtung Panzer

On August 19th of 1944, OKH ordered that dark yellow (RAL 7028) was to be factory applied as the base colour with dark olive green (RAL 6003) and red brown (RAL 8017) for use in camouflage patterns.

:confused:

[ThomasStewart]

Wait am confused now,

extract from Achtung Panzer


:confused:

Paint schemes and related orders are VERY confusing and very contradictive. Basically this was an actual order and it was followed, then it came about that it wasnt economical for factories to apply camo paint schemes so the paint was given to units...then it turned out that it was...then it turned out that it wasnt economical to paint them anything other than red oxid by the end of the war.

[ThomasStewart]

BTW I think your confusing base-coats and base colours, I should have made it clearer in my explination :o that the base-coat was red-oxide and that this was then painted over by dunkelgelb. The BASE-COAT of red-oxide was the paint which helped to stop the vehicle from rusting. Much as you would apply a base coat of paint to a model, and then apply an over-coat (dunkelgelb in this case).

The jagpanther will have a base-coat (under-coat) of red oxide, with a base colour (over-coat) of dunkelgelb. And then will have had red-oxide applied in strips, with white to break it up.

[enigma]

Ah right, so they would be painted Red in factory, then Grey, Yellow etc would be applied afterwards, given to the units who would then apply appriporate camo/additional paints?

[BillSpargo]

Here are the paint colours used for german military vehicles from February 1943 based on seasonal variations:

RAL 8012 Dark Red Primer [factory base coat]

RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb (dark yellow) [disruptive pattern or factory base coat]
RAL 6003 Olivgrün (olive green) [disruptive pattern or factory base coat]
RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun (chocolate brown) [disruptive pattern]

RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau (dark grey) [disruptive pattern - occasionally used]

So they weren't always painted with the red primer at the factory, this was often dependent on availabilty. Often panzers were only painted with two tones with the base coat showing through.

[enigma]

this is getting confusing now, so:


if available, from before the war and during the tanks would be painted with red oxide then painted with whatever, the grey being the overcoat.

middle war, Factory painted yellow or red when available and so for the rest of the war?

[BillSpargo]

Yep, apart from the Afrika Korps the basic colour was grey (RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau) until early 1943 when camouflage patterns were introduced, variations of which—either field or factory produced—lasted until the end of the war. Vehicles already in grey were not necessarily repainted.

[ThomasStewart]

Here are the paint colours used for german military vehicles from February 1943 based on seasonal variations:

RAL 8012 Dark Red Primer [factory base coat]

RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb (dark yellow) [disruptive pattern or factory base coat]
RAL 6003 Olivgrün (olive green) [disruptive pattern or factory base coat]
RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun (chocolate brown) [disruptive pattern]

RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau (dark grey) [disruptive pattern - occasionally used]

So they weren't always painted with the red primer at the factory, this was often dependent on availabilty. Often panzers were only painted with two tones with the base coat showing through.

Again this is where confusion rains. Peoples definitions of base-coat are different. Dunkelgelb was NOT a primer (or as I would call, a base coat), these vehicles were primed (base/under-coated) with red oxide and then an over/"base"-coat of either panzer-grey or dunkelgelb or olive green or chocolate brown was applied. Factory camoflage schemes were braught in in August 19th 1944, but soon after this the order was negated and camoflage was left to the individual crews/units again.

AFRIKAKORPS panzers were never primed/under-coated in desert sand colours, many of the vehicles sent to Africa were already painted grey and already had their undercoats/primers of red-oxide. Desert colours were applied over the vehicles later on.

Many late war (end of 45) panzers, saw themselves recieving only their red-oxide primers before being sent out to their units.

[enigma]

So...

Tank is built,

Tank is painted in Red Oxide to stop it rusting,

Still in the factory the tank then recieves a coat of paint on top of the red oxide, depending on the year, either Grey, Yellow etc

Then once with there units, they would apply whatever camo scheme they desired or was standard etc

correct?

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Sounds correct Enigma. Its good to see a proper informative discussion, and its interesting. I need to repaint some of my model tanks, so, some of the info and links have been very useful. :)

[enigma]

I think we may have just cracked it! :D

[ThomasStewart]

So...

Tank is built,

Tank is painted in Red Oxide to stop it rusting,

Still in the factory the tank then recieves a coat of paint on top of the red oxide, depending on the year, either Grey, Yellow etc

Then once with there units, they would apply whatever camo scheme they desired or was standard etc

correct?


Nononononono yes!
Correct. :)

[enigma]

lol :)


*dances in circle* (work collegues watch on in complete and utter shock)

[BillSpargo]

I stand corrected on the undercoat always being the primer.

My favourite German panzer camouflage of the war was the late-war 'octopus' design which consisted of a dark or olive green with dunkelgelb or cream coloured pattern and green circles. This appeared on a late version Tiger II with narrow (transport?) tracks, 18-sprocket drive wheel and re-inforced front mudguards, which was destroyed around April 1945 near Kassel.
http://fprado.com/armorsite/Tiger-2-2002-Picz/KTiger-1945.jpg

[enigma]

Edit: got it wrong!

[BillSpargo]

it would seem the basic grey colour was switched to yellow around the 41-42 mark ;)
Early '43.

Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRpxqLwSpms) showing field maintenance and painting.:D

[-X-Sublime]

You know something i noticed while looking at that video No one of thoose guys had a hair color than blonde and it makes me wonder was that what one of the panzer division requirements blonde hair blue eyes the hole works if so then i guess i should be more knowlegeble in that

[BillSpargo]

You know something i noticed while looking at that video No one of thoose guys had a hair color than blonde and it makes me wonder was that what one of the panzer division requirements blonde hair blue eyes the hole works if so then i guess i should be more knowlegeble in that
Errr... no.:confused: They were Heer not Waffen SS and most of them had brown hair. Watch it again.

[-X-Sublime]

shhhhh your ruining my moment of insite and deep beliveing that me being german with blond hair blue eyes had some sort of past

[enigma]

Early '43.

Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRpxqLwSpms) showing field maintenance and painting.:D

Ah yes correct, my fault there :)

Nice vid but what the hell was that thing the dude had (the tube he was holding horezontial near his head) just before the flak opened up?



shhhhh your ruining my moment of insite and deep beliveing that me being german with blond hair blue eyes had some sort of past

er yea? lol :p


Btw isnt the whole thing of the W-SS being filled with Blue eyed blonde hair ayrians .... well, wrong lol?

[BillSpargo]

Nice vid but what the hell was that thing the dude had (the tube he was holding horezontial near his head) just before the flak opened up?
That's a range finder. [I wonder if they'll feature in the game? I'm planning on playing as artillery in a counter-battery role.]



Btw isnt the whole thing of the W-SS being filled with Blue eyed blonde hair ayrians .... well, wrong lol?
For the most part yes. There were initially certain standards physically (and genealogically?) which had to be met, however these criteria were lowered when manpower shortages began to take effect later in the war.

[ThomasStewart]

That's a range finder. [I wonder if they'll feature in the game? I'm planning on playing as artillery in a counter-battery role.]



For the most part yes. There were initially certain standards physically (and genealogically?) which had to be met, however these criteria were lowered when manpower shortages began to take effect later in the war.

Range finders will indeed feature, I have just completed research for well over 100 various ammunition boxes and I am soon to start collecting images of other props such as telephones, radios etc. :cool:

As for the blonde hair, blue eyes myth...well thats just exactly what it is; whilst SS soldiers had to be of aryian (white caucassian - none ethnic/Jewish/Gypsy...) stock, blonde hair and blue eyes was not a requirement. Each generation has its own ideals of beauty, today we reken a lass with a well formed arse, nice face and a visible cleavage is the appitamy of beauty, for the Germans of 1940, it was blonde hair, blue eyes and a symmetrical face....big breasts and a nice arse were a bonus;) . For the lasses, it was biceps the size of Bournemouth and blonde hair, blue eyes and a symmetrical face; the Nazi regimes ideal of man. However as you may have noticed, not everyone looked this way, and having looked through hundreds of personnal photographs on sale on ebay, in books, at stalls etc. I can tell you that amongst them there were quite a few of "plain lookingl" SS soldiers and "plain looking" German women.

[OliverMarshall]

1 example would be Herr Hitler himself.;)

[BillSpargo]

Range finders will indeed feature, I have just completed research for well over 100 various ammunition boxes and I am soon to start collecting images of other props such as telephones, radios etc. :cool: Yay.:)
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/weapons-german-ww2/image20.jpg

But will there be Kommandogerät 40 and Kommandohilfegerät 35 anti-aircraft directors or the Horchgerät listening device for heavy AA guns?


For the lasses, it was biceps the size of Bournemouth and blonde hair, blue eyes and a symmetrical face I wonder what one of those would look like in three colour ambush camouflage.;)

Staying with women, the SS had a programme where Aryan girls (members of the Bund Deutscher Mädel (BDM)—often virgins) would be sent to an institution of some kind and would be expected to procreate with Aryan men who were members of the SS. This was to establish a good gene pool for the future of the Reich (eugenics).

1 example would be Herr Hitler himself. Hitler and his cabal certainly were a rogue's gallery.

[ThomasStewart]

If it was in Normandy and was used....itl be in the game.

[enigma]

Good enough supplied :)





Yea its always got me how Herr Furher and his cronies where nothing like what they preached, does make you wonder if there lil empire ha dlasted if they would not have been overthrown by there übersoldiers? lol