Burma

[enigma]

Been reading 'Defeat into Victory' by Field Marshal Viscount Slim.

Making speedy progress through it, its a great account of what happened over there in Burma and India.

For example, British and American troopers started mixing it up in Calcutta. The MPs went in, the British ones calming down the Tommies and the American ones calming down the yanks. One of whom wouldnt quite calm down, so the American MP took off the guys cap .... smacked him one with his nightstick then put the cap back on the guy.
When asked by the British MPs why he had taken the cap off he replied ... he respects the United States property ... or somthing along those lines! :eek: lmao


However that is not why i write this,
Stirwell, according to Slim, managed to talk the Chinese into sending 13000 men into India to create 2 new divisions which would then fight there way through the Japanese and towards China (so it would seem),
he also talked the India goverment into accepting the extra chinese troops (as it would seem there was already 2 Chinese divisions whom fell back into India when they could not make it back to China), talked the British into paying for it, feeding them, clothing them and accomedating them and talked the Americans into flying them there!
The Americans where able to fly 13000 men into India from China over the 'Hump' .... the eastern end of the Himalayan Mountains!

(page 144)

Quite an achievment!


extra info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hump)

[enigma]

Silm mentions by the end of '42, morale was improving.

By himself, corps, divisional and so on the down the line commanders going out and talking to the men, officers, NCOs and the rank and file and especially the rear area units, that was the foundation for morale to be built on.
Not only that, they had information centres set up in each unit so that the men could be informed of the local and over all plans and news.

With the Aussies kicking the crap out of the japs, morale improved and with the state of mind if they can do it so can we, it also helped destroyer the myth which had arisen that the Japanese where untouchable in the jungle.


Its then stated that with large scale offensives out of the picture for a while, all the commanders directed there attention to patrolling, as this would give the men the jungle exp they need and help them learn how to fight in the jungle etc

He states that the patrols provided success and after success down to the skill and intelleginece of the men and officers, and the stories from the patorls swept through there units increasing morale, in his words:


These patrols came back to their regiments with stories of sucess, of how the Japanese had walked into their ambushes, how they had watched the enemy place their observation posts day after day in the same place, and then pounced on them, how they had followed their patrols and caught them asleep


Our men brought back a Japanese rifle, an officers shoulder-straps, a steel helmet. Sometimes they brought back even more convincing exhibits, as did the Gurkhas who presented themselves before their General, proudly opened a large basket, lifted it three gory Japanese heads, and laid them on his table. They then politely offered him for his dinner the freshly caught fish which filled the rest of the basket


The buzz went around each unit "Have you heard about Lieutenant Smith's patrol? Cor, they didn't 'alf scrag the Nips...!"
"We rushed them as they were cooking, Havildar Bhupsingh bayoneted three...!"
"Rifleman Gingerbir crept up luki-luki behind him with his kukri. The Yellow-belly's head bounced three times before it stopped rolling"

Other then being rather sick ... it does give you an impression of how bloody Jungle fighting must be!

He then does state that new patrols went out under an experianced leader and came back with more stories of sucess. Even if they did not meet and engage with the enemy they had engaged in a sucessful hunt.

Around 90% of these patrols he states met with success, and soon morale had recovered ... it also gave the men the desire to close with his enemy!


Following which, after the weather improved small scale offensives where launched. Briagde groups with full air and arty support vs a Japanese company-battalion, a battalion size raid agaisnt a platoon position.
All of which to contuine to improve the men morale and let them know they could defeat the Japanese.

Via this they laid down the first of thier "intellectual foundations of morale" - everyone knew they could defeat the Japanese and there objective was atainable. (will post his other points for the foundation of morale tomorrow)

[enigma]

Well am a few hundred pages from where i was, intresting read but nothing worth mentioned however i will get back to what i had posted, here is what Silm defines as the foundations of morale.

So all you budding Generals out there, take note!



1 Spiritual

(a)There must be a great and noble object.
(b) Its achievement must be vital.
(c) The method of achievement must be active, agressive.
(d) The man must feel that what he is and what he does matters directly towards the attainment of the object.

2 Intellectual
(a) He must be convinced that the object can be attained; that it is not out of reach.
(b) He must see, too, that the organization to which he belongs and which is striving to attain the object is an efficient one.
(c) He must have confidence in his leaders and know that whatever dangers and hardships he is called upon to suffer, his life will not be lightly flung away.

3 Material

(a) The man must feel that he will get a fair deal from his commanders and from the army generally.
(b) He must, as far as humanly possible, be given the best weapons and equipment for his task.
(c) His living and working conditions must be made as good as they can be.



Silm, the mentions that its one thing to marshal his thoughts together but another matter when it comes to devloping them, applying them and have them recognised by the whole army.

He then notes that the British Army's spiritual foundation was a firm one (the explution of the Japanese from Burma, the Liberation of Burma, Rangoon, Singapore etc, Defence of India etc). He then ensures the reader follows by stating:

I use the word spiritual, not in its strictly religious meaning, but as belief in a cause. Religon has always been and still is one of the greatest foundations of morale, especially of military morale. Saints and soldiers have much in common. The religion of the Mohammedan*, of the Sikh, of the Gurkha, and of the fighting Hindu - and we had them all in Fourteenth Army - can rouse in men a blaze of contempt for death. The Christian relgion, as we understand it, is not essential o high morale. Anyone who has fought with or agaisnt Nazi paratroopers, Japanese suicide squads, or Russian Commissars, will have found this; but a spiritual foundation, belief in a cause, there must be.

Good Stuff! :)




*Seems to be the term in use during the time period for people of the Islamic faith.

[OliverMarshall]

Sounds good, I might get it. I don't really know much about the war in the east.

I also wouldn't eat those fish!:o

[enigma]

lol :) I think the fish would have had a nice taste to them :p

As fort eh book, took me 6 months to get hold of a copy, all book retailers, amazon etc just didnt have a copy. They would order one but then i would be told a few weeks later the publisher had cancelled it :(

I finally got one after spotting it on Amazon ... sold by the 'Southport Book Group' ... hopefully it will be a bit more avavilable now.


Anyhoo, in places ive found the book to be very intresting to read - where he has described rear area ops to build up morale, training etc was pretty intresting but his accounts of the forward area seems to be lacking sometimes.
I really liked the account of the fighting and the retreat from around Rangoon back to India (am sure he states it was 1000 miles but that cant be right ... from looking on maps, it can vary ... to Imphal or the Indian border, its like 400-600 miles), Japanese tactics etc fighting there way out etc tec , following that was pretty good but then the fighting at Arakan was not that good imo.

Following that, he mentions the stuff above and am now into '44 iirc and the battle at Imphal has jsut begun. This account of the fighting does seem better though :)

Its intresting, that there was so many British, Indian, Ghurka etc, Chinese, American and Japanese troops all over the the theater and that they where spread so far out, the way its fought is so Alien after the reading of the African and European battles.

[biggles]

Jeez louise Enigma! You sure love history, just like me!:)

[OliverMarshall]

I think you'll find most people here like history ;)

[enigma]

Battle of Imphal,

At the area of Bishenpur, the Japanese had been massacred by the 63rd Brigade.
They had entrenched themselves in the "mule lines", they where then promtely surrounded and in the following days, with the help of tanks, wiped out.

The slaughter was that great that bulldozers had to be used to bury the Japanese dead ... as well as the mules which had also suffered heavy.

It was here that Ghurkas where used to collect the Japanese dead from poisitions inaccesable to the bulldozers...


..one Japanese, picked up by a couple of Ghurkas, proved not to be dead as expected. A Ghurka had drawn his kukri to finish the struggling priosner when a passing British officer intervened saying 'You mustn't do that, Jonnhy. Dont kill him!' The Ghurka, with his kukri poised, looked at the officer in pained surprise, 'But sahib,' he protested, 'we can't bury him alive!

Alas it does not state if the Japanese was fortuante enough to be sent to a hospital and later a POW camp, or if he was finished off .... still a good laugh though :p

[biggles]

Yeah....or perhaps they did bury him alive:eek:

Let's not hope so though....I think he got send to a hospital/POW camp, no reason to kill him right? or the english tea-sipping types might think that the Ghurkas are barbarians:)

[lazlazlaz1]

nah, we are privaliged that the Ghurkas are part of the British forces, they are just from a not very wealthy country

[enigma]

I got told that the Argies during the Falklands abondoned a hill once they heard a Ghurka battalion was heading there way! :D


Anyhoo, the book has passed the Battle of Imphal and onto the pursuit and Silm states what he is hoping (at that point in time) would be the 2nd and final decisvie battle agaisnt the Japanese and thus retake Burma.

Well during his narative of the battle he contuined to state how our losses were less then the Japanese but never gave numbers. IVe just looked on the wiki and found this:

Battle of Imphal
54,879 Japanese casulties, 12,603 CW

Battle of Kohima (a small town under siege by the Japanese during there attack into India
5,764 Japanese casulties to the 4,604 CW losses.
Silm does state quite regularly that the Japanese thought to the death, and that there was few Japanese captured (although wiki states only around 14 000 were killed).

So between March and the beginning of July when the battle of Imphal ended, the Japanese lost nearly 60 thousand men to the CW losses of just over 15!:eek:
One must note, those figures most lilkly increase with "missing" and those on both sides killed during the pursuit afterwards :eek:

[biggles]

Interesting.......and yet the Japanese should be better trained for jungle battles than the Common Wealth forces....right??

Anyway, how about the Air superiority over Burma??

What I know the R.A.F was stronger and "better", but I may be wrong....some information,maybe:confused:

[OliverMarshall]

Not really, remember Japan was off mainland Asia and is mostly mountains, no jungle. It is about as much of their natural habitat as it is to a Britisher.

About air superiority, the Japanese kept their fighters which had been in service in 1941 for the whole war. So by 1943 they were still fighting the Zero when the had the Spitfire IX. It would have been like having a Spitfire MkI v a Me262. Not good in a dogfight. Also Japanese factories were not able to keep up with demand and Burma was considered a secondar theater to the Pacific and so got new aircraft last.

[enigma]

Japanese zeros did make the odd fly by over the CW airfields and the odd attack agaisnt the C47 convoys. However in Silms words they where beaten off with few losses. He also mentions the build up of ack ack around important targets that the Japanese fighters and bombers took a pounding if they did decide to make a raid.

As for the RAF and USAAF, other then preforming fighter sweeps it would seem that most of the planes where employed in a fighterbomber roll. Giving direct ground support whenever needed.
examples listed by Silm, have been fighters helping to brake roadblocks via strafing and bombs, and in one instance he mentioned hurricanes basically diving into the treeline to strafe the Japanese positions.

Medium bombers would also seem to be employed in a direct ground support roll, striking more heavily fortified targets or concentrations of troops.

The Japanese airforce, as Shrap said was nothing of its former glory of '41 when it swatted most of its oppoisition away.
One must realise that most of the planes in the Burma theater at that time was Hurricanes and Buffalos... in most cases outmatched. Based on airfields way behind our lines and only a few of them here and there.
Thus there effectiveness was again reduced and they could only protect small areas.
At this point in time, the fighters and bombers have much longer range, the ability to create airstrips is available, airstrips captured and created in the Japanese backyard exisit and that the fighting after the retreat took place either inside or along the borders of India where the airfields it would seem are alot closer.

As for the Jungle fighting, that myth was quickly disolved by command after the retreat.
Training, learning to live off the land and exp via patroling proved that they where as good if not better :)
Check out some of the eariler posts for better examples :)

[biggles]

okayokay..........but what about the RNZAF and the RAAF?? Did they assist in the fight?:confused:

[enigma]

okayokay..........but what about the RNZAF and the RAAF?? Did they assist in the fight?:confused:

As far as I am aware, no. I believe they took part in the defence of Singapore in '41.

By this time, New Zealand had scrapped 1 of its 2 divisions iirc and sent the remaining men of this 2nd division to reinforce there dudes in Italy. I cant say for certain but its a proberbility thats where there planes where.

As for the Ausies, they recalled as many of there boys home to fight off the Japanese advance on Australia (they finally got there last boys from North Africa home i believe after the campaign there ended)
Again possibly a good bet to say any Australia planes where over in New Guinea, or whereever the Ausies where by this point :)




Edit:
In the chapter following the Imphal battle, Silm sums up the Japanese losses:
pg366-367

The Imphal-Kohima battle which now ended was the last and greatest of the series that had been fought continuously during the past ten months on all the Burma fronts. They had achieved substantial results; the Japanese Army had suffered the greatest defeat in its history. Five Japanese divisions (15th, 18th, 31st, 33rd and 55th) had, at any rate temporarily, been destroyed as effective fighting formations, while two other divisions, an independent brigade, and many line of communication units had been badly mauled. Fifty thousand Japanese had been killed or died, and their bodies counted on the Arakan and Assam sectors. Allowing only half that number badly wounded - and a very high proportion of their wounded died or were maimed - the enemy had lost permanently some seventy-five thousand men. Add to this fifteen thousand casulties suffered on the North Burma sector of N.C.A.C*, and the total irrecoverable losses inflicted in operations under Fourteenth Army command were some ninety thousand men. The Japanese themselves later estimated their casulties in these battles at this figure. In addition there were the four or five thousand Japanese accounted for by the Yunnan Chinese.
...
Some six hundred had been captured, and of these i do not believe that more then a hundred and fifty were physically capable of further resistance...
This proportion of prisoners to killed, about one in every hundred, a notable compared with thatin European or African theaters...
...
Japanese losses in equipment was also high. Nearly all the tanks and most of the vechiles the enemy brought into Assam were destroyed or captured. Over two hundred and fifty guns** were taken...

Regarding CW losses:

Our own losses, as was to be expected in such fighting, had not bee light. The Fourteenth Army, alone, had suffered some fifty thousand battle casulties, killed and wounded. Many of the latter would recover and return to fight again, but losses had been heaviest where they were hardest to replace, in the officers and NCO's***...
We had yielded only a handful of prisoners, of these the wounded had almost invariably been murdered or left to die. We had lost no guns. An area of Burma more then twice the size of Ireland had been liberated.


Our troops had shown themselves steadier, more offensive, and better trained then ever before. They did not now accept any country as impassable, either for the enemy or themselves. They refused to be jittered by encirclement, they were as ready as the enemy to strike out into the jungle and inflitrate. We had by degrees become better in the jungle then the Japanese. Most important of all, every British, Indian, African, and Chinese division that had served under Fourteenth Army had met picked Japanese troops in stright bitter fighting an had beaten them. Our troops had proved themselves in battle the superiors of the Japanese; they had seen them run. This was the real and decisive result of these battles. They had smashed for ever the legend of the invincibility of the Japanese Army. Neither our men nor the Japanese soldier himself believed in it any longer