Quick Question

[Josh_HLB]

I searched for this all over the net but cant find what i want.

You know how the US in WWII and today have the different military units? like

platoon->squad->fireteam.

Was germany's like that in WWII? or did they have something different? If so can you point me to a good reference or something, i need to know this for my CoH mod.

[BillSpargo]

This link (http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/nomenclatureG2.html) might give you some info.

[enigma]

check this link out too (http://www.feldgrau.com/org.html)

Shows the Unit Organization from Heeresgruppe (Army group) to small unit formations.

[harrisonmai]

It varied with the type of military branch. Ex.) Waffen-SS, Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, luftwaffe..

[enigma]

It varied with the type of military branch. Ex.) Waffen-SS, Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, luftwaffe..
next time ... could you at least post an example instead of some amazing insight such as that ... :rolleyes:


Btw Wehrmacht is not a branch .... Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine are branches of the Wehrmacht!

[Saden]

It varied with the type of military branch. Ex.) Waffen-SS, Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, luftwaffe..


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d137/1337airsoftmike/orly.jpg

[enigma]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d137/1337airsoftmike/orly.jpg
LMFAO!!!! :D

[ThomasStewart]

It varied with the type of military branch. Ex.) Waffen-SS, Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, luftwaffe..

Rubbish.


Plus, Luftwaffe, SS and Kriegsmarine are certainly not branches of the wehrmacht! E gads man....<shakes head>

Luftwaffe is the airforce
Waffen SS is the branch of the SS, subordinating to Reichsfurher SS subordinating to Hitler
Kriegsmarine....its the freakin Navy, why on earth would it subordinate to the army?

[enigma]

das Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (the High Command of the Armed Forces)

OKW

Under OKW

was OKH, OKL and OKM ... the army (heer <--- this is the Army!!!), airforce, (luftwaffe) and the navy (Kriegsmarine).

Techincally OKW is the General Staff (although due to the way the German chain of command went, everything gets complicated about whos in charge of who)


Sani is correct about on the Waffen SS being a law upon themselves however it would seem they where (divisions, korps etc) also placed at times under the command of the Wehrmacht. I dont have much exp in this field but one would image an example of this being when they worked along side the GD division under Manstien during the fighting at Kharkov and slightly later on at Kursk when under Hoth iirc they where it would seem II SS Panzerkorp was part of the 4. Panzerarmee.

[ThomasStewart]

Right, as I am at the moment reading through Heeres gruppe B KTB at the moment, I can tell you that:

Ober Kommando Der Wehrmacht and Ober Kommando Des Heeres are two different things.

OKW as you say - was a joint force of chiefs of staff although the SS were "officially" not a part.

OKH is in fact the army, thus the Luftwaffe was not subordinate to the army...

[enigma]

But they where a subordinate to OKW, just like OKH and OKM where subordinate to OKW.


Which is what really balls up the Chain of Command, as OKW ran milatry operations in the west and OKH ran the ops in the east. Then the infighting, people reporting to other people, going over peoples heads etc ... the The Fuhrer having operational control of units etc :S



There was even more fragmentation as naval and air operations had their own commands (Oberkommando der Marine (OKM) and Oberkommando der Luftwaffe (OKL, Hermann Göring)) which, while theoretically subordinate, were largely independent from OKW or OBW*.


There under them but again due to messed up chains of command had a free hand it would seem at what ever they wanted to do.


*OBW, Commander in Chief West


What exactly is KTB ?

[ThomasStewart]

But OKW wasnt led by the army ;) Thus the Luftwaffe, SS, Kriegsmarine etc was not subordinate to the army. OKW was a formation of chiefs of staff allowing high coordination between the forces. The German system was highly competative, no one wanted to be subordinate to another....

[enigma]

Aye, but who has said that they where subornatite to the army? :confused:

[ThomasStewart]

Well, the Wehrmacht technically is the army....OKW was not high command of the army...it just had personnel in it who were members of the high command of the army...

[enigma]

I was under the impression they served in the same aspect as they say, the joint chiefs of staff or for example Louis Mountbatten as the "Supreme Allied Commander of the South-East Asia" under which was everyone else... for examples.

[EvilHobo]

The Wehrmacht was the Armed Forces, with the Army as well as other branches subordinate to it...

[ThomasStewart]

On the ground movements are sanctioned by army group leaders, OKW personnel sanction deployments. It gets confusing because OKW was really the voice through which Hitler spoke to the forces...naturally when he went completely off the chart (was he ever on it?) his voice was increasingly heard through OKW and this countermanded the system by for example restricting the release of units to OKH control in Normandy.

The allied system worked whereby joint chiefs of staff argued and competed to take command of deployments etc, these deployments and commands were slow and planning operations was even slower. The German forces system worked (when Addy didnt interfiere) by allowing relative freedom for army group leaders. Naturally OKW sanctioned deployments and releases of units and generally were similar to SAC (Supreme Allied Command), but generally OKH, OKL, OKM had freedom of movement to do as they wished on a relative scale. That is to say that so long as OKH/OKL/OKM operations were within the deployed zone, group commanders could do what they needed. For the allies this wasnt the case, everything had to be sent through the system and processed. Whilst this meant that whatever the allies did was well thought out, it certainly wasnt fast and this meant a loss of initiative, which is everything in war.

[ThomasStewart]

The Wehrmacht was the Armed Forces, with the Army as well as other branches subordinate to it...

Wikipedia is not always right, and its interpretations can be...well...mis-interpreted.

[Hamilkar]

Wehrmacht= Armed-doers/ArmedForces literary

THe Wehrmacht is the overall High Command of ALL armed fighting units.

The Luftwaffe/Airforce, Kriegsmarine/Navy, Waffen SS/Fighting Bodyguards, Heer/Regular Army were the different branches of armed forces/Wehrmacht.

Theses branches met at the OKW or Chief of Staff (not the person, the whole organization)

[EvilHobo]

Wikipedia is not always right, and its interpretations can be...well...mis-interpreted.

Wasn't referencing Wikipedia. If it's what Wiki says, then it's coincedence.

[Josh_HLB]

O....k....


Nice to see my thread stayed on topic... :confused: :p :p :D

Any other links? Like a more organized definition of Gruppe and other groups?

[enigma]

O....k....


Nice to see my thread stayed on topic... :confused: :p :p :D

Any other links? Like a more organized definition of Gruppe and other groups?
did you have a looksies towards the bottom of the link i gave you?

[BillSpargo]

did you have a looksies towards the bottom of the link i gave you?


Zug (pl: Züge) [Platoon]:

A Zug consisted of a number of Gruppen. The Zug served at the tactical level. In theory, a Zug would have had between 30 and 40 men within its ranks.

Gruppe (pl: Gruppen) [Group]:

The smallest sub-unit in the German military, usually a component of a Zug.

Halb-Zug (pl: Halb-Züge) [Half-platoon]:

The result when a normal sized Zug was split into two separate parts.

Trupp (pl: Truppen) [Troop]:

A small unit, smaller than the zug, usually of 10-20 men in size.
I think the definitions given on that link are a bit confusing, however it seems to me they would be used in differing situations. It seems a trupp (squad) is given to a specific utilisation e.g. light mg team etc. but gruppe (section) is a standard range in number of men within the zug (platoon)



Schützengruppe - Infantry Section: Infantry sections consisted of a leader and 12-14 men, who normally advanced into combat in two separate squads, using different routes of advance:

Gruppenführer - Section Leader
l.M.G.-Trupp - LMG Squad (4 gunners with 1 LMG)
Truppführer - Squad Leader
Schützentrupp - Rifle Squad (7-9 riflemen)

[Lt.Buck]

lol jesus my head hurts.

sani and enigma u guys fucking crack me up love your work boys

[enigma]

I think the definitions given on that link are a bit confusing, however it seems to me they would be used in differing situations. It seems a trupp (squad) is given to a specific utilisation e.g. light mg team etc. but gruppe (section) is a standard range in number of men within the zug (platoon)

[/LIST]

Its wording is a bit off but looks pretty simple and like the British organization (to me at least):

Platoon - Zug
Squad - Trupp
Section - Gruppe



however it seems to me they would be used in differing situations. It seems a trupp (squad) is given to a specific utilisation e.g. light mg team etc. but gruppe (section) is a standard range in number of men within the zug (platoon)
Lost me there :confused:

[ThomasStewart]

Wehrmacht= Armed-doers/ArmedForces literary

THe Wehrmacht is the overall High Command of ALL armed fighting units.

The Luftwaffe/Airforce, Kriegsmarine/Navy, Waffen SS/Fighting Bodyguards, Heer/Regular Army were the different branches of armed forces/Wehrmacht.

Theses branches met at the OKW or Chief of Staff (not the person, the whole organization)

Again...its a mis-interpretation, Wehrmacht means armed forces literally when put together with "Ober Kommando Des Werhmacht"....the Wehrmacht was also a none official name for the Heer...Hence when you ask a Heer Veteran which branch of service he served in, more often than not he will tell you the "Wehrmacht".

As said previously, OKW was similar to SAC, but really it was the same as the War Cabinet in London at the beginning of the war.


As for zugs etc....well, Ive never come accross a halb-zug before.

[ThomasStewart]

I think the definitions given on that link are a bit confusing, however it seems to me they would be used in differing situations. It seems a trupp (squad) is given to a specific utilisation e.g. light mg team etc. but gruppe (section) is a standard range in number of men within the zug (platoon)
[/list]

No not at all.

A gruppe was given a machinegun.....a Trupp could be given several or even none....It worked rather randomly by 1944.

But if you read this article it will explain about the basic 1944 gruppe:

http://www.dererstezug.com/1944Gruppe.htm

[enigma]

Nice link Sani :)


We all had these Russian guns, still had the star on the metal. These guns were big and clumsy, about as much a precision instrument as a sledge hammer.
PPsh41's or Mosin Nagants?

If the first, seemed a tad ungratful to have them no?

[ThomasStewart]

PPSH is about as accurate as a blindman throwing stones...The Moisin nagant rifle....well, not bad but gimme the 98k anyday.

[enigma]

still, they had to be effective (and cheap) otherwise they would not have been issued in droves and loved by the Ivans.

[OliverMarshall]

With millions of soldier with millions of rifles and thousands of tanks. Who needs acuracy?:confused: :p

It also gets more confusing when you include the Waffen-SS, since that was part of the Army; but then again it wasn't the Heer.

Sani you talk about commanders being allowed to do what they wanted at a tactical level. That certainly wasn't true after Stalingrad, before perhaps. If you look at Normandy, Rommel could hardly do anything until Hitler woke up because everything was controlled by him. Churchill wanted to meddle in affairs but was generally restriced or held back by Field Marshall Alan Brooke. Stalin did alot, but not lower than army level. Hitler tried to control everything down to companies, and in some cases below even that. The german systemn of command was flawe compared to Allied methods. However that is not what this thread is about.

Josh_HLB have you got the answer that you were looking for. This has turned from being a 'quick question' into a major thread.;)

[ThomasStewart]

With millions of soldier with millions of rifles and thousands of tanks. Who needs acuracy?:confused: :p

It also gets more confusing when you include the Waffen-SS, since that was part of the Army; but then again it wasn't the Heer.

Sani you talk about commanders being allowed to do what they wanted at a tactical level. That certainly wasn't true after Stalingrad, before perhaps. If you look at Normandy, Rommel could hardly do anything until Hitler woke up because everything was controlled by him. Churchill wanted to meddle in affairs but was generally restriced or held back by Field Marshall Alan Brooke. Stalin did alot, but not lower than army level. Hitler tried to control everything down to companies, and in some cases below even that. The german systemn of command was flawe compared to Allied methods. However that is not what this thread is about.

Josh_HLB have you got the answer that you were looking for. This has turned from being a 'quick question' into a major thread.;)

Actually if you re-read what I wrote, which was that armygroup commanders certainly had a good freedom to do what they wished on a localised front, then you will realise I am talking about armygroup commanders and not how OKH was restricted in terms of reinforcements to the beaches, by OKW. ;)

Oh and as for the flawes in the German structure, there were very few until Hitler took overall command and expected everything to be passed by/through him and then cleared by him. It reduced OKH's freedom and OKW became rubber stampers for old Addy.

[marvïn]

Rubbish.


Plus, Luftwaffe, SS and Kriegsmarine are certainly not branches of the wehrmacht! E gads man....<shakes head>
As far as I know, "Wehrmacht" is the generic term for the German Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.


Wikipedia:
Der Begriff Wehrmacht (fälschlicherweise auch Deutsche Wehrmacht; deutsch darf hier nur als Adjektiv gesehen werden, nicht jedoch als Teil des Eigennamens) bezeichnet die durch das Gesetz über den Aufbau der Wehrmacht vom 16. März 1935 aus der damaligen Reichswehr hervorgegangenen regulären deutschen Streitkräfte in der Zeit bis zum Jahr 1945. Die deutsche Wehrmacht gliederte sich in Heer, Kriegsmarine und Luftwaffe.

My translation:
The concept Wehrmacht (by mistake also Deutsche Wehrmacht; deutsch is to be seen as an adjective here, not as part of the proper name) denotes the german regular armed forces which emerged from the former Reichswehr by the Wehrmacht forming law as of March 16th, 1935 during the time till 1945. The german Wehrmacht subdivided into Heer, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.

[enigma]

I am talking about armygroup commanders and not how OKH was restricted in terms of reinforcements to the beaches, by OKW.

I don’t see how since OKW took overall command of the West, whereas OKH had overall command of the East :p



As for the command structure, look at this:

for example the Luftwaffe, technically under OKW but Goring runs the whole show and has the power to dictate howa campaign would be run - Dunkirk, Stalingrad etc
Becomes jealous that he has no ground forces and thus builds himself the Goring Panzer division was under his direct command or at least OKL, am sure i read that somewhere.
Was unwilling to give the Kriegsmarine there own planes for the CV which had been built, reluctantly iirc gave them late ron but only outdated planes.
Himself and iirc Himmler where able to have OKW's Blomberg sacked as well as Werner von Fritsch ... thus meddling within the Chain of command trying to gain favour and get rid of people he had became jealous of.

Jeez the dude somehow got himself put in charge of exploiting the industrial resources captured during the war! :rolleyes:

[OliverMarshall]

It gets even more confusing when you include paratroopers, SA troops, etc

[Josh_HLB]

Ok, before this thing gets longer and more off topic.

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/

Everything i need, is in that link.


Thread can be closed. :cool:

[[FFTF]Eurofighter]

this might help as well
http://www.feldgrau.com/
its got fancy webdesign n pictures :D not as boring as josh his link :p jk mate ;)

[enigma]

Eurofighter']this might help as well
http://www.feldgrau.com/
its got fancy webdesign n pictures :D not as boring as josh his link :p jk mate ;)
lol :) Yep is a good site :)

(Tis the site i linked to ;) :p)

[[FFTF]Eurofighter]

lol :) Yep is a good site :)

(Tis the site i linked to ;) :p)

owh whups you did :p it looked different from the main page webdesign lol