Various tactics/equipment related questions.

[Josh_HLB]

I dont wanna keep making threads for all my questions about certain units in Comapny of Heroes.

So ill post them all here.

As most of you know im making a mini mod for Company Of Heroes, which makes everything very realistic.

I have a good site now, http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/ It gives me alot about the Mortar, Rifle, And MG teams, Also some in the medium tanks and paratroopers. But if anyone has a simlar site with alot of loadout info, and formation, then give it to me.

But i need some info about certain units, which im having a hard time with.

1. How were M10 Tank Destroyers used, (tactics wise) and What were they accompanied with?
2. How were medics asigned to squads? (BoB is whats making me ask) Are they at the Company HQ and then just go to the front line?
3. For the Rangers and general Riflemen squads ( i expect seperate answers), how were snipers implamented? Like, were they part of the squad, or did they go "lone wolf"?
4. What made up a engineer squad (how many, what jobs) and what weapons/equipment did they use?

[2ltben]

1. It was a tank destroyer, so there wasn't much point in using one against infantry or fixed positions when even a Stuart could do better. It played more or less the same role as the StuG.

2. They wern't. I believe it one medic per platoon and they would bring wounded back to an aid station.

3. Rangers had an actual sniper role, Infantry platoons had a designated marksman, but the DM had the same responsibilities as any other infantryman, he just knew how to shoot. Most snipers were issued Springfields, though most had no scopes, and some even took the scopes off because they got in the way.

4. If you want a look at combat engineers, take a look at the Rhine crossings.

[Josh_HLB]

1. It was a tank destroyer, so there wasn't much point in using one against infantry or fixed positions when even a Stuart could do better. It played more or less the same role as the StuG.

2. They wern't. I believe it one medic per platoon and they would bring wounded back to an aid station.

3. Rangers had an actual sniper role, Infantry platoons had a designated marksman, but the DM had the same responsibilities as any other infantryman, he just knew how to shoot. Most snipers were issued Springfields, though most had no scopes, and some even took the scopes off because they got in the way.

4. If you want a look at combat engineers, take a look at the Rhine crossings.

Thanks for answering, but you didnt answer some of them...

1. I know what M10s are/do, i wanted to know how they went into battle. (i.e Had sherman /infantry escort)

3. How was the sniper used? Did they stay with the squad or did they scout ahead. Where they the same for both Rangers and regular infantry?

Remember this is for a RTS, so answers are different... I need to make my facts into RTS capable facts. So if a sniper stays with a squad, then ingame he will hang around the squad, If he was a lone wolf, then ingame he will be a seperate unit.

[Moseman872{White Tiger}]

I'm afraid I don't have any answers for you, but I was wondering what scale you were going to make the mini game for.

[Josh_HLB]

I'm afraid I don't have any answers for you, but I was wondering what scale you were going to make the mini game for.
scale?


This is a mod for Company of Heroes

IF you mean how real it will be, it will be as real as the engine and gameplay allow.

[harrisonmai]

Medics were actually part of their own regiment, theyd be divided equally between companies, usually atleast 1 medic to a company. (im talking about germans)

as far as snipers, statistics show there were atleast 1 sniper to every 2000 soldiers. they werent usually assigned to a squad, theyd move with companies or somtimes even squads (depending on the assignments) usually they were a benefit and could be used for all they were with whether it be a company, regiment, squad, etc.

[Josh_HLB]

Here are some exellent websites i found, so noone repeats them

A site with alot of info on the various Tanks and armored vehicles
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/index.htm
And a awesome penatration table from that site. They have them for all of the different countries vehicles
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/guns.html#37mmM5/6

This site about the 44th Infantry Division
http://efour4ever.com/44thdivision/home.html

EDIT


This isnt a question, but more of a request.

I need to know the outcomes of single tank engagments. For example.

Sherman M1A1 (76mm) vs a Tiger I
M10 Wolverine vs Panzer 4
etc.....

If anyone has ANY stories of these kind of battles, then post em!

I need to know, who shot first, range, angles and other stuff. Im gonna use this to improve the tanks in CoH.

[2ltben]

If there's one thing I found about research its that the Internet isn't worth sh**. The only way to do it is to head to a good library and start reading.

[enigma]

I need to know the outcomes of single tank engagments. For example.

Sherman M1A1 (76mm) vs a Tiger I
M10 Wolverine vs Panzer 4

One should note there is no M1a1 ;) Think you mean M4A1(76)W :p anyhoo, the answer would most likly be a bruskie for the shermie :p
The 76mm on the Americans tanks iirc had the ability to kill Tigers and Panthers (which iirc is much more heavily armorued then the Tiger) but there gun was not as effective as the British 17pounder.

I have read 'By tank into Normandy' by i think it was Stuart Hills. A British Tanker, he recalls when his squadron advanced into the town of Gheel in belgium, he states that one of the regiments squadrons took heavy losses during the day/evening (cant remember which) to a German armoured counterattack.
In the town was elements of the squadron he was in, along with the regemental hq (based in M5 Honeys). During the evening/night the German counterattack came in.
A jadgpanther (even mroe heavily armoured then the Panther) was struck by a 17pounder of one of the guys in the same troop as Hill. He states that he felt the blast, or his tank shake (they where around 100? meters away) from the exploding Panther after it was struck at rather close range (within in a 100-200 meters i think).


1. It was a tank destroyer, so there wasn't much point in using one against infantry or fixed positions when even a Stuart could do better. It played more or less the same role as the StuG.
The Stug was orignially envisioned by Manstein as a arty gun slapped on a tank chasis, so it could support the infantry when they where attacking, so it could take down building, dug in infantry etc.
Iirc there gun is smaller, length wise which is important as in general the longer the gun - the more velocity you get, to the Panzer IV.
However the Stug, was also effective as a tank killer.


Sturmgeschütz is a German word for "assault gun", usually abbreviated StuG. They were widely used to provide fire support for infantry, panzer and panzergrenadier units.

Throughout World War II, especially later in the war, Germany produced more assault guns than tanks. This was because they were cheaper and quicker to produce due to the lack of revolving turret and associated complex machinery and lacked ball bearings Germans had poor access to.

Yet they were almost as effective as tanks and were lower.

The Americans envisioned tanks as the infantry support and infantry killer weapon and the exploit weapon and the TD as the tank killer.
However following there baptism of fire in Afrika they changed there doctrine iirc so am unsure of how they where used by '44.

One has to question how, since didnt the M10 also carry HE rounds? how the M5 Stuart with the much smaller gun firing HE is more efective then the larger gun lobbing HE? The larger the HE round the more effective it is iirc. When not just call a Sherman in to level a building if they needed to then?


Later in the Battle of Normandy the M10's gun proved to be inadequate against the frontal armor of the numerous German Panther tanks encountered and by the fall of 1944 the improved 90mm Gun Motor Carriage M36 was beginning to replace it, though it remained in service until the end of the war.
In the Pacific, US Army M10s were used for traditional infantry-support missions



If there's one thing I found about research its that the Internet isn't worth sh**. The only way to do it is to head to a good library and start reading.
I give you linky (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm)

There are great websites out there which contain great ammounts of information, websites which gives you maps (think i opened a topic the other day which had great maps of the battle of Kursk which i have never seen in any books on the subject), websites which contain online books, peoples research etc etc etc
There are also sites which give information regarding Order Of Battles and Table of Organisation and Equipment (think thats what there called) etc etc which some books dont always have)

As well as bibliographys and people to ask who are in the more know how on subjects, which you may not find in books sometimes.


One could suggest the following books (think i PM'd you these) on overall Tank information, ive been told there the best there is on the subject but ive never seen them:

British and American Tanks of World War Two, The Complete Illustrated History of British, American, and Commonwealth Tanks 1933-1945, Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis, 1969

Tanks of the World, 1915-1945, Peter Chamberlain, Chris Ellis, 1972

Panzer Truppen The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force 1933-1942, Thomas L. Jentz, 1996

Panzer Truppen The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force 1943-1945, Thomas L. Jentz, 1996

Jane's World War II Tanks and Fighting Vehicles The Complete Guide, Leland Ness, 2002

The Encyclopaedia of Tanks and Armoured Fighting Vehicles - The Comprehensive Guide to Over 900 Armoured Fighting Vehicles From 1915 to the Present Day, General Editor: Christopher F. Foss, 2002


You may also wanna check the American offical histories (dont have the names of them sorry) if you can find them, ive been told there available on the net to look through and in most large liabaries.
They may contain information on the 1 on 1 events your after.

Also may wanna find the names of tank divisions, and tank destroyer battalions and see if you can dig up info on them via books or the net on them, as again they may have information your after.
Alas i cant really point you in the general direction where to find such information as the American role in the war isnt my string point, my research and reading mostly focus' on the British role.

[Josh_HLB]

Wow, i feel dumb... :o I meant M4A1....

I still cant believe the 76mm could penatrate almost 100mm (tiger has 100mm frontal) or armour at 500 yards.....

From everything i heard, the Sherman wasnt to be head to head against a Tiger or Panther. But i guess if the sherman shot it could have bounced off the tiger, and if the tiger got a good shot the Sherman was done for.....

We gotta think RTS here, say a sherman and tiger go at it in game, i need to know what would happen if that happened in real life. From what i read, it would be a matter of who shot first.. Correct?

[enigma]

Wow, i feel dumb...
lol dotn worry about it :) anyhoo ....

From what ive read, 1 on 1 the Shermans are toast :(

However that just isnt the rule of thumb :), Tigers have been taken out and disabled by 6 pounders (57mm)

If the first shot was well aimed then yeah there is a very decent chance it would nail the tank.

For example, using Combat mission and its rather in deapth ballsitic and armour details ... i had a 76mm Sherman take out a Tigers gun with its first round thus essentially disabling the Tiger, while the Sherman it self was moving and the Tiger was.
Following up they couldnt penetrate that much and most shots bounced off ... they where within 300-400 meter range.


A Tiger tank isnt this invincable machine we all think it is, which is only vunerable from behind.
Here is the armour states (mm/angle)
Front Turret: 100/8
Front Superstructure: 100/12
Front Hull: 100/35
Side Turret: 80/0
Side Superstructure: 80/0
Side Hull: 60/0
Rear Turret: 80/0
Rear Hull: 80/0
Top / Bottom Turret: 25/81 / 25/90
Top / Bottom Superstructure: 20/90
Top / Bottom Hull: 20/90
Gun Mantlet: 100-110/0

It would seem the sides, top and bottom are the weak spots.

Speed (onroad): 20-35km/h,
Speed (off road): 8-10km/h
Ive seen a vid which took the Turret only 12 seconds to turn 180 degrees ... prehaps it was sped up but thats hell of lot faster then i had imaged.


The turret was traversed by hydraulic power, but for adjustment and elevation handwheels were used.

The American 75mm M3 L/37.5

Penetration at 90 degrees (mm):

500m:66
1000m:60
2000m:50

expect the figures to keep going up as the tanks close, so we see that the 75/l37 gun will have a hard time killing a Tiger ... but to say that it could never could kill one is a lie.

However check out this link which provides a compaarison of the US 76mm gun and the Soviet 76:
linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_gun_M1)

The 17 pounder (a British gun, caliber 76.2mm - although renamed '77 mm HV') would seem to trump the American gun everywhere (this has been backed up by alot of talk etc over the net and in books, the 6 pounder (57mm) also does the same to all other guns of the same cal)

Though no more well-armoured than most M4 versions, the 17 pounder anti tank gun offered far better performance than the standard 75 mm gun which had been chosen for the infantry support role. Even using the regular APC round it could penetrate the front armour of a Tiger I at over 1,000 meters; with the more advanced rounds that became common towards the end of war, the APCBC and then the APDS it could penetrate at over 2,000 meters.

So we have 2 guns, which can easily kill the enemy.


Cant find detailed armour stats for the Shermans so am gonner just type in the frontal armour details:

................Turret...........Upper Hull..........Lower Hull (mm/angle)
M4..............89/0...............51/56..............51/15
M4A1...........89/0...............51/5...............51/0
M4A1 (76)W..89/0...............64/6...............64/0
M4A3...........89/0...............51/5...............51/0
M4A3 (75)W*.89/0..............64/47..............102/15

*and the M4A3 (76)W


going off stats for the Italian theater, based in sept '44, the M4A3 (76)W was very common and the M4A1 (76)W less common (something in the region 1 to every 5 tanks) ish, although that doesnt state anything for Normandy.


Now the Tigers, killing ability:


Armor-piercing rounds usually accounted for half of a Tiger's ammunition supply, the rest taken up with Sprgr. High-explosive rounds for use against enemy soft-skinned vehicles and infantry. The hollow-charge Gr.39HL round, which was less productive at short range, was sometimes exchanged for some of the HE load despite being less accurate. The Pzgr.39 APCBC (Armor Piercing Composite Ballistic Cap) round was capable of piercing 100mm of armour at an angle of 30 degrees within a range of 1000m. The tungsten-cored Pzgr.40 round could easily pierce 171mm of armour at short range and 110mm at 2000m, while the Gr.39HL round could penetrate 90mm of armour up to 2000m.

Maybe helpful, if someone can translate:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~godot/ShermanChart.jpg




The tactic which was adopted, from things ive read was to fight Tigers at a 5-1 ratio ... 4 tanks act as bait while the other closes in, 4 tanks act as bait while the 76mm tank blasts it ... or they just all try n close in.

However i have not read that much on Tiger vs Allied tank battles to know if this is true or not.


It is reported that in July of 1944, commander of 3rd company of schwere Panzer Abteilung 506, Captain Wakker, destroyed Soviet T-34 at the range of 3900 meters. The rule applied by the British concerning the engagement of Tigers was that five Shermans were needed to destroy a single Tiger, but only one Sherman was to return from the engagement.


Tigers destroyed large numbers of enemy tanks and other equipment, creating the myth of their invincibility and fearsome power - "Tiger-phobia". Tiger also had tremendous effect on morale of both German and Allied soldiers, German felt secure, while Allies thought that every German tank, especially late model PzKpfw IV was a Tiger ! "...

If you read German this may be of help:
Tigerfibel (http://tiger1.info/fibel/)



But in the end there so weak that even ike can knock one over by the Tiger just being in his pressance!
ok i dont think it is a Tiger but still looks sort of funny! (http://www.ceris-normandie.com/archivesnormandie/PhotosHD/p011183.jpg)

Trucks bash Tiger aside!
http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/7837/ccccccc1rv.jpg

One also recounts from By tank into Normandy, where Stuart states over the radio, one of the guys in his troop or squadron states:
(something along the lines of) "ive spotted what seems to be 3-4 Tigers in the woods, am moving in to engage!"
!!! Ballsy!



So all in all, who shot first and at what angles and range .... mostly (it would seem) resulting in the death/wounding/shasking up of 5 Americans.

[Josh_HLB]

Thanks alot enigma! :D

That helps me a bunch.

[enigma]

No probs, glad to have been able to help :)


Edit: One should note that the angle of the armour increases its effectivness.

For example, the Jagdpanther roughly is (from stats ive seen)

Upper hull is 83/curved
lower hull 63/55

Which is far more protective then the Tiger 100mm or the Sherman.


Edit, the turret information for the Shermans may be inncorrect, my source doesnt state the angle or curve of the armour, which i am lead to believe was actually there. So the Sherman turrets may be more effective then one would gather from a look at the stats above.

[Josh_HLB]

Now i need info for how Tigers, Panthers, and/or Panzer IVs were handled by the Allies.

For example, if you and your 2 Shermans are rolling through a city and a Tiger pops its ugly head, what are the tactics to take it out.

Im sure someone on the net has a scan of a Army training manual or something.


Also, what if some infantry (regular grunt GIs) are on guard with no close armor support and Germans counter attack with some Panthers and infantry, how would the american infantry defeat it? Make sticky bombs? Call in Arty? Put on Ghost costumes and scare them away? :p

They may have Bazookas but those are not effective against a panther's armor.

Lets say they have compositon B and they are able to make a sticky bomb. How effective are they?

So bascially i need to know

1. What are the tactics procedures to attacking a Tiger/Panther/Panzer IV
2. How effect were sticky bombs against Panthers, Tigers, etc....
3. What other things could infantry (no armor or AT guns) do to defeat a german heavy tank?

Same goes for the Germans, how did the infantry alone handle armored vehicle threats?
Minus the Panzersfaust and Panzershrek (sp?)

[enigma]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/Enigma_MCMXC/general%20pics/arty.jpg

:D



Germans also had a large number of AT weapons including,

Magentic mines,
Grenade bundles - a stick grenade with several grenades attached to the centre.
http://www.relics.org.uk/mmm/p0181.jpg
Panzerwurfmine
link to pics (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/panzerwurfmine/index.html)
Rifle grenades,
Satchal Charges
The Faustpatrone .... an early panzerfaust, and know as the panzerfasut 30k.

Grenades are also usefull ... ive read, if you can lob one in an exhaust duck ... boom baby ... the thing isnt destroyed but will have to be abonded, same as if you can get it in the hatch etc .... although i have no sources for these just stuff ive read people stating.

[Josh_HLB]

Ok, now i have a bigger request.

Is there any book or site which details the loadout of a company of WWII?

Like for example, everything that BoB Easy Company had. Like exactly what each platoon was made up of. And what each squad's loadout was in the platoon. Now i have a site with the basic loadout and its perfect.

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/USInfantry/rifle_company.htm

But every company had a specific loadout. Which is what i want. It doesnt matter the company but it cant be a Armored Company or Rangers.

Thanks for any help.

[Matt]

I know the M10 tank destroyer was used in a shoot and scoot manner.. pretty self explanatory, find a good spot to fire, fire a few rounds and get the hell outta there :) .

[BaDBoY86]

Now the Tigers, killing ability:



Maybe helpful, if someone can translate:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~godot/ShermanChart.jpg



So, as no one has translated ill do it, though dont expect it to be 100% accurate as im not german and ive just read german in school 3 years ago.

So anyway...

Sherman 8 8 43

Heck= Rear

Seite= Side

Front= Front (in case you didnt understand that one)

Antigotz/ Antigötz= (Dont have a god damn clue)

Ich kann Dich, doch Du mich nicht abschiessen!(the odd looking letter is a double s)= I can you, though you me not shoot (Direct translation)/ I can shoot you but you can't shoot me (Free translation)

Das betreten des kleeblattes ist sherman verboten! = For a sherman to enter the clover sheet is forbidden(Free translation)/ To enter the clover sheet is sherman forbidden(Direct translation)

This translation was done to my best german knowlage and may contain errors and feel free to correct me!

[harrisonmai]

Its saying dont let tanks inside 800 meters or you will be vulnerable to flanking.

[[BEF]-R!G4M0RT!Z]

Oh, thats interesting, thanks for the translations :)

[enigma]

Nice one for the translation :)

As for the Antigötz thingy :p

Anyone a member of this forum be able to have a snoopin this topic?
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/some topic on the Antigötz thingy (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112796&highlight=antig%F6tz)

So a manual or some form of weapon on the Tiger?

[2ltben]

I can't believe I lost this site's url. I'm using it as a reference for a CoH mod I'm tinkering with.

[css2d]

Anti Götz probably reaches back to "Gotthold Ephraim Lessing" a german Theologist who was advertising tolerance to other religions and races.
A preacher (götze/goeze) was offended by those radical ideas (it was about 1770), and they exchanged some letters.

Basically Lessing totally bashed this guy and made those letters public, so everyone laughed at Goeze, because he was not as wity as Lessing.

So i think it means, someone can make as much fuzz as possible, but he can't do anything to you


I could be totally mistaken though ^^

[ThomasStewart]

Nice one for the translation :)

As for the Antigötz thingy :p

Anyone a member of this forum be able to have a snoopin this topic?
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/some topic on the Antigötz thingy (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112796&highlight=antig%F6tz)

So a manual or some form of weapon on the Tiger?


If you do a forum search on 44 forums, you can find an uploaded tigerfibel mannual.

[Appleskates]

Josh, i beg you, PLEASE make it so an accurate MG firing wave will actually kill something, or at least make it realistic.

An entire MG cartridge being unleashed upon a rifle squad with no cover and killing only one man puzzles me.

EDIT: Overall if you just made the combat realistic that would be nice.

[enigma]

If you do a forum search on 44 forums, you can find an uploaded tigerfibel mannual.

Aye :) the site is where i got the Sherman chart from, however with not being able to read German and iirc the online translators being some what usless, i am not able to Id what this Antigötz thing is.

Google searching it i found links to the forum i mentioned, however you need to join and at the time i didnt see the point in joining up to the forum just to access a single page which may contain an answer, which is not really troubling me :)

[EvilHobo]

I've got a Tigerfibel in pdf somewhere...

Angling is explained with sausages. True story.

[BillSpargo]

There are links to the Tigerfibel images from the same source as Enigma posted on David Byrden's Tiger Info (http://tiger1.info/fibel/) site. No translation though.