The Middle Eastern earthling equivalent of Hitler Youth? [Archive] - 1944 D-Day : Operation Overlord : Official Game Forums

typhaon

03-16-2007, 02:38 PM

Influencing youths in such a way is the biggest crime I can imagine... children should be able to grow up in a world without prejudices and being allowed to get their own oppinion about things...

@ XAS Bravo: There can be more than one bad side... I find the patriotism of some other countries especially the USA somewhat disturbing too... well maybe it's just because I am German and in Germany you are very sensible with patriotism... I like Germany, I am proud to be German and I have no problem to hold the German flag high... but if you do so there are always people that call you Nazi or something like that then... although I think those things are completely different...

DavidUpton

03-16-2007, 04:58 PM

Patriotism is one thing, but then there are other things like this. This is unforgiveable. One of the greatest crimes a person can commit is to use innocent children who don't know what they are doing as tools. They are the most effective form, after all. Easy to influence and brainwash and once you have managed that you have a fanatical walking bomb.

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 05:35 PM

typhaon it's the same in sweden. If you are patriot and hold your flag up high you will without a dobut be called a nazi by someone.
Btw the please change the thread name "The Arab equivlent of Hitler Youth?" I'm not an Arab but even I get offended by that.
I remember that you found it insulting for me to call the tactics at gitmo for gestapo tacics. Now you are you are comparing brainwashed kids with Hitler Youth. Don't you think that is a bit insulting? How would You feel if started a thread named "The american equivalent of the third riche?" wouldn't you be offended by that?
It is always sad when people use childer as way to spread death and destruction, the truth is kids are being brainwashed all the time. This is just one of the more horrific examples

OliverMarshall

03-16-2007, 05:53 PM

Well it is difficult to say that the Palestinians are in the wrong in all of this, Israeli troops are occupying some of their country and whilst Israel asks for Hamas to recognise Israel they do not recognise Palestine. Having said that brainwashing children like that is terrible. After so many years of oppresion though it is difficult to see how a people would not want to fight. I saw an article in a newspaper a few years ago which has stuck in my mind ever since.

It went something like this (number are not correct):

Israel:

Tanks: 500
Planes: 500
Troops: 200,000
Ships: 30

Palestine:

Tanks: 0
Planes: 0
Troops: 0
Ships: 0
Suicide bombers: unlimited

It is strange to note though that whilst the Palestinian resistance is supported by many in the West, Iraqi insurgents are not, perhaps becuase Isreal intends to occupy the land that they take rather than liberate it from a regime.

Please don't take any of my above remarks as anti-semitic I have many Jewish friends and agree that they should have their own country. However Isreal is just as bad as some of the Islamic states around it with regards to religion and stuff and they have not made their lives any easier, pulling out of Gaza was a step in the right direction but there is still a long way to go before peace is reached in the Holy Land.

One of the other problems is US support for Israel over any other Islamic state with arms and other goods in free flow. This is one of the major reasons that people in the middle east hate the US right now since they view it as an unfair and unjust superpower, of which it is the only one remaining.

Another point would be the fact that Israel has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which most other countries in the world have. And Isreal almost certainly has large supplies of nuclear weapons built up and the means to utilize and produce them. So you have the US saying that countries like the Islamic Republic of Iran can't have them when they support another effectively single religion state which has them and has not signed any treaty limiting their use.

Isreal is in a difficult position however with states with a Muslim majority surrounding them on all sides with some quite large armies. Isreal has not made it's task easier however by over reacting to certain situations. For example the recent Isreali-Lebanese conflict which started with a few Israeli soldier being abducted by Hezbollah and ended with an Israeli invasion of Lebanon which left at least 1600 dead and ruined the Lebanese Economy and Infastructure just as it was beginning to prosper after the end of the Lebanese Civil War.

Sorry for the extremely long reply it may have got a bit out of context as well, I intended just to have a small paragraph but it turned out rather larger than taht.

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 05:58 PM

Hitler Youth was an organization corresponding with certain regime(very horrible) in Germany and made by that regime.

Arabs are a member of a Semitic people inhabiting Most of the Middle East whose language and Islamic religion spread widely throughout the World from the seventh century. Arabs can be considered part of the white ethnic group.

So where is the logic in your parallel? Fundamintalist equivlent to the Hitler Youth should do...

Again, I found this quite disturbing. No offense, but it again proves that there is a picture of a common "enemy" created by public opinion wich is based on political lies and lack of objective information.

typhaon

03-16-2007, 06:33 PM

Most I'm sorry for those people who try to change all these things... even though they get stuck into one corner with all the "bad" people when it comes to prejudices... yeah, prejudices rule the world... if people where judged by their individual behavior the world would be a much more friendly place... but with some people using such methods you cannot afford to get to know foreign people without fearing for your life...
Personally I think mankind will eliminate itself one day... most likely we all die from because of ourselves before those sure future catastrophes like clima changes or exploding sun or something like that happens...
Well maybe I'm a bit pessimistic, but in the past all considered highly developed civilisations vanished one day... and now with the whole world as one great civilisation... what comes after that...

NicholasJohnson

03-16-2007, 06:51 PM

please change the thread name "The Arab equivlent of Hitler Youth?" I'm not an Arab but even I get offended by that.

Will I change the title? Yes. I had "equivalent" spelled wrong. Haha sorry but I won't bow to political correctness and change the title to avoid offending someone. No way. This is just smoke and mirrors designed to divert the subject.

EDIT: Enigma's title is much more appropriate.

Now you are you are comparing brainwashed kids with Hitler Youth

Um, Hitler Youth = brainwashed and violently anti-Jewish

These kids = brainwashed and violently anti-Jewish

So where is the logic in your parallel? Fundamintalist equivlent to the Hitler Youth should do...

Wow, Corporate Ignorance actually understands and agrees with what I am trying to say...shocking :eek:

Is it wrong to point this out because they are Islamic and therefore untouchable? I'm sorry but these points are dodging the issue at hand by bringing up the possible offense of people. Go read the "3 Little Pigs" topic, I guess I shall change that too to avoid offending a "Muslim." As a non-Dhimmi and a proud kafir, I won't change the title. I'm suprised I haven't been told to change the title to avoid offending Nazis ;)

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 07:08 PM

I also dislike political corectness. I really do. It will kill Europe someday. But Arabs are a very general, vague term. it's an entire ethnic group of people...
So if we follow this logic-
German(!) equivelent of Al-Kayada=Hitler Youth? Don't think so.

And I am no supporters of terrorists, they are the other side of the coin...It's terrible, actually. But why you Americans yelled and screamed about freedom-fighters several years ago in Chechnya while those "freedom-fighters" cut heads of our soldiers and sent the videos of it to their mothers, but now you activley support Russian "anti-terrorist campaign"(Very dirty, actually) after you've encountered the same troubles in Iraq?

NicholasJohnson

03-16-2007, 07:11 PM

Wow, again, I agree with you. :eek: Must be our media whining again, as I am against those crazies in Chechnya too.

What am I supposed to replace Arabs with? Muslim? Palestinian? Third world?

enigma

03-16-2007, 07:19 PM

Earthling from the location know as the Middle East?

NicholasJohnson

03-16-2007, 07:20 PM

Done.

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 08:06 PM

Wow! now I'm blamed for political correction, clearly if I have called your countrys kids "Hitler Youth" you would have been offended

"Um, Hitler Youth = brainwashed and violently anti-Jewish

Let me change that line "brainwashed and violently anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-slavic" Wait a minute arn't muslims slavic?

and now let me add my own logic

American kids = brainwashed and violenty anti-muslim and anti-communist.

That means that you're even more equival to hitler youth than the arabs are.

Hitler thought that they were the superior race and that they need to remove everyone who was inferior (communism, jews, slavs etc.)
Terrorist are fighting for a completely diffrent cause.
So how can they be the same?
Ironicly if these kids were Hitler Youth they would have to kill them selfs becaus Hitler hated muslims as much as he hated jews.

NicholasJohnson

03-16-2007, 08:21 PM

Hitler hated muslims as much as he hated Jews?

What about the Handschar Division and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem?

And all your anti-US crap is again in here to divert the topic in order to claim Americans are a bunch of Nazis.

American kids = brainwashed and violenty anti-muslim and anti-communist.

That means that you're even more equival to hitler youth than the arabs are.

Clearly shows you know nothing about me or American kids. I have Arab and Iranian friends, I don't hate Muslims, you are full of it. There is no large anti-communist belief among American kids, the Cold War is over.

More equivalent to the HJ than the Arabs are? Based on what? Because I link a video showing crazy Arab kids I am the same as a Nazi? Utter BS.

clearly if I have called you're countrys kids "Hitler Youth" you would have been offended

You aren't Arab, you aren't from Palestine, I didn't call Swedish kids Hitler Youth, so your logic is BS. I also would not have demanded the title be changed.

Hitler thought that they were the superior race and that they need to remove everyone who was inferior (communism, jews, slavs etc.)
Terrorist are fighting for a completely diffrent cause.

So "Kill all the Jews and infidels" is not the same as "removing everyone who was inferior?"

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 08:38 PM

Terroirists are not something unified , by the way.

There are lots and los of pecualrities when you discuss such complex issue as internetional terrorism.

Nobody is right.Ordinary suffering soldiers are just following orders. They die for nothing. They die for Corporate globalization actually. I feel sorry for them, as much as for crazy kids who gave their life deeming that they save ther country from agressor. I don't feel sorry for guys who cut heads- THAT is the fringe. But agian- all those cruelty is cunningly used by Western Powers and for example with our Goverment in Chehnya. So, "terrorists" are evil, and should be prosecuted. That comes staight to the mind. But the most astonishing thing is that those who are trying to prosecute them are commiting crimes also. There are no CLEAN sides in this endless conflict, it's far too complicated.

Terrorist are not indiependent. Their actions are moved and used by several large powers in this deceving world. Their actions sometimes serve as an excuse for terrible policy of the Western states wich follow their egoistical geopolitical intrests . That's out of question, I suppose?
So, let us stay away from "terrorists"?. They are evil and awful , no doubts...But...

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 08:58 PM

"What about the Handschar Division and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem?"

Hitler was also a hypocrit, you know he made a treaty before the war with the russians so he wouldn't have to fitght on two flanks.

"And all your anti-US crap is again in here to divert the topic in order to claim Americans are a bunch of Nazis."

No I'm just saying that your logic fails
just because a kid has been brainwashed to hates jews doesn't make him a hitler youth, there more to it.

"Clearly shows you know nothing about me or American kids. I have Arab and Iranian friends, I don't hate Muslims, you are full of it. There is no large anti-communist belief among American kids, the Cold War is over."

Yes but that is only you! I have seen american kids beating muslims just becaus they think they are"terrorist" and many people in america still hates commuism. How can you be so blind not too se that?
What you showed was one person and you blow it way out of portion.

"You aren't Arab, you aren't from Palestine, I didn't call Swedish kids Hitler Youth, so your logic is BS. I also would not have demanded the title be changed."

Look up the word empathy.

"So "Kill all the Jews and infidels" is not the same as "removing everyone who was inferior?" hahaha as a matter of fact, it's not.

And btw "Kill all the Jews and infidels" who keeps spoonfeeding you with that shit? CCN, FOXnews?

NicholasJohnson

03-16-2007, 09:00 PM

And btw "Kill all the Jews and infidels" who keeps spoonfeeding you with that shit? CCN, FOXnews?

Arab TV. Did you even watch the videos posted in here?

I have seen american kids beating muslims just becaus they think they are"terrorist"

When and where? Hmm sounds exactly like "What you showed was one person and you blow it way out of portion."

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 09:02 PM

Guys, you argue is pointless, to my mind.

Zip

03-16-2007, 09:05 PM

"So "Kill all the Jews and infidels" is not the same as "removing everyone who was inferior?" hahaha as a matter of fact, it's not.

Actually when they say infidels they mean every one that isnt Muslim;)

So thats every one but them

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 09:09 PM

I couldn't watch it. my media play doesn't work. however I did read the "kids mother" link

I will look for the link. I also read about a taxi driver who shot a man for looking just like Usama bin laden.

Btw just look at borat at the rodeo show.

enigma

03-16-2007, 09:10 PM

Lets address the question of Hitler. Himself and Himmler, there not Hypocrits ... they were pretty clever.
They were nasty racisits who deserved to die but non the less clever.

First off yes they wanted rid of anyone they viewed as below them and not of Aryan blood.
However they allied themselves to put themselves in a stronger position.

For example, there has been statements that there are documents which Himmler had prepared about doing away with Asians once they had finished off there business in Europe.
However they sided with the Chinesse and then later the Japanese.

To be that seems that they are putting themselves in a position which is an advantage to them at that moment. Like with there deal with the Soviets. They covered a flank while they were busy elsewhere... then backstabbed them.

Finally, whats wrong with disliking commusim. doesnt mean your brainwashed .... its a crappy corrupt system which doesnt work.

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 09:15 PM

Guys, I say again- you all search for LOCAL examples of hatred that burns within TWO sides(at least). So Pfc.Jakson will find terrorist footage where they proclaim hatred to all infidels, and Zynthetikk will find some facts regarding racism or opression towards Muslims.(For example, U.s soldiers's vandalism towards the mosques in Iraq) This are FACTS wich are happening on each side of the barricade.

But you won't prove anything to each other... The answer is not in this facts. The answer is in the reason wich causes so much hatred.

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 09:15 PM

NicholasJohnson

03-16-2007, 09:16 PM

Try the other youtube vid here: Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuiSP8X6E)

Zip

03-16-2007, 09:19 PM

enigma

03-16-2007, 09:28 PM

Finally, whats wrong with disliking commusim. doesnt mean your brainwashed .... its a crappy corrupt system which doesnt work.

The ideas of Commusim good, but it's too bad it doesn't work in practis.

Private healthcare ... public transport! ... thats just one stop away ... :eek:

no i only jest .... ive been playing GTA3:SA whils ive been sick and some woman on one of the radio stations keeps mentioning that :D

But you won't prove anything to each other... The answer is not in this facts. The answer is in the reason wich causes so much hatred.

I agree, but sometimes the answer is stupidity and ignorance.

For example, a dude i worked with. He was a complete racist, over the months i worked with him and got to know him it was ignorance of others and anger towards poltical correctness.
Thus he styled himself Anglo-Saxon ... true English ... after months of listening to this and egged on by my mate (outside of work i told him all this) i asked him why he liked Germans so much (after he nabbered on about Anglo-Saxons again).
He was so confused.

Admittaly Anglo-Saxons arnt Germans, there tribes from modern day Denmark and Northern Germany. But he seem to not know this - again ingorance. Ignorance to back up his anger, possible hated and ignorance of people.

Another example, other people i have worked with state people cant get jobs because of all these Poles taking them (there words not mine).
Unlike the majoirty of them, ive met some of these Polish dudes (they were literally Polish :) ). There highly qualified and experianced and have travelled the world! (well the bunch ive met)
Again unlike them ive seen how hard it is to get a job when you have left college and have no experiance of the workplace.

Facts they dont listen to, ones they dismiss and carry on in there deluded little world behind there desks.

To sum up .... there all ignorant idiots! (well you could claim for the last bunch, they need these delusions has it makes them feel all high and mightly with there current job ... sigh ... why do i work with them! .... i guess its to piss them off which i do weekly :D)

I mean you could say the same about me, i dont like Commusim, yet have never lived in such a socity nor spent a good deal of time talking to one (the last one i told to "bog off" and you should have seen the uproar it caused :D ... i wasnt signing there petition! :p )
At least ive learnt not to go round sprouting it off to everyone and making myself look like a stupid git like the above examples :p (well not as much :p)

Edit: should not am not referring to anyone here and the opinions stated in this post are ones formed about the people i have mentioned from there characters, points of view etc

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 09:46 PM

Corporate Ignorance is right, there's no point arguing about this. We are all just a buch of puppets.

enigma
"I mean you could say the same about me, i dont like Commusim, yet have never lived in such a socity nor spent a good deal of time talking to one"

Come to sweden we are semi-socialists, we have free healthcare and dentalcare :)

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 10:25 PM

By the way, Sweden and England are my favorite countires.:) Scandinavian mythology and Anglo-Saxon culture are real inspirations to me.

totally offtopic, but I would like to lessen the suspense of the Iraq thread.:)

Jensen

03-16-2007, 10:36 PM

Well Sweden is equally fucked up as the middle east! You are letting in all the muslims you can and besides you have a pretty big portion off jews. I do not live in Sweden and can sit and watch your country rot from the inside. Good luck having a non-muslim sweden in 50 years is all i can say.....

Enigma:"
For example, a dude i worked with. He was a complete racist, over the months i worked with him and got to know him it was ignorance of others and anger towards poltical correctness.
Thus he styled himself Anglo-Saxon ... true English ... after months of listening to this and egged on by my mate (outside of work i told him all this) i asked him why he liked Germans so much (after he nabbered on about Anglo-Saxons again).
He was so confused."

Well, he maybe is but the idoelogy behind his ideas exist! It is called pan-Germanism wich is the greater good of Europe's ethnic population above all else. If that means kill all jews/arabs/muslims/negroes then so be it. They are preparred to do anything for a strong and monoracial united Europe.

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 10:45 PM

"Well Sweden is equally fucked up as the middle east! You are letting in all the muslims you can and besides you have a pretty big portion off jews. I do not live in Sweden and can sit and watch your country rot from the inside. Good luck having a non-muslim sweden in 50 years is all i can say"

Yes we do, but we don't have any terrorist attacks... Hmm I wonder why :D
Well if I start to rot I can go to the hospital an get free healthcare :P
And if you think we are fucked up because we let muslims in, then you are racist!

OliverMarshall

03-16-2007, 11:14 PM

Even for a political forum this is getting out of hand. Keep it civil please.

Frankly every child today is brainwashed in some way.

Most of the world is starting to hate the US

The Middle East is hating anything US already

The West is starting to get scared of Muslims and specifically Muslim extremism

Also kids get brainwashed through History

Ask any American boy what he thinks of the British and he'll probably say something not very nice because of what happened hundereds of years ago with events pushed all out of proportion even though for the past 100 years the US and UK have been firm alllies.

Jewish kids grow up basically being taught to be superior to Arabs and Arabs grow up hating Jews.

the Japanese are getting fearful of the Chinese

the old Eastern bloc are worried about Russia

This all boils down to racial differences, kids will grow up according to their national identity. You can't blame Arab kids for hating Israelis because whilst tanks fire into their houses on Friday nights there will be Israeli kids hating Arabs cause their friends got blown up.

It's a never ending circle of hatred and death.

Corporate Ignorance

03-16-2007, 11:22 PM

Very sad, but nevertheless good words, Shrapnel.:) Two thumbs up!

JonasDahlin

03-16-2007, 11:29 PM

I totally agree with you Shrapnel.
And I'm so sick of the news feeding us with this fear.
But as someone once said. "there are only two ways to controll people, through fear or through hope"

"kids get brainwashed through History"
Speaking of History, My sisters friend who went to an american school was thought that Alfred nobel was an american inventor. Wich I find kind a funny, I mean everyone knows that he comes from sweden.

sooch90

03-19-2007, 10:15 PM

Here's what I think. I agree, that maybe it might not be the best thing to use "Arab" when you are actually referring to Islamic extremist. As much as I hate being overly politically correct, I feel this may be a necessary one.

However, I want to point out some differences between those Muslim children in the video and Jewish children living in Israel. Those Muslim children were encouraged to kill Israeli civilians, indiscriminately. The host of the show and the kids took pride in the number of Israeli the mother killed.

Israeli children are not encouraged to kill as many Palestinians as possible. Judaism does not teach children that they will go to heaven if they die killing nonbelievers (yes I know not all Muslim children are taught this, but these children certainly are).

I want to share this saying with you guys.
A Christian martyr says "I will die for what I believe in."
A Jewish martyr says "I will die for what I believe in."
A Islamic martyr says "You will die for what I believe in."

Okay, some may find that funny, other may find that offensive. But before you flame me for being insensitive hear me out. You never hear of any Muslim martyrs that die trying to spread their faith in peaceful ways. I'm sure there may have been, but many Islamic martyrs die by terrorizing different groups of people. On the other hand, Christian martyrs die spreading their faith. There are many incidences of Christians going to China, North Korea, the Middle East, etc. where they die because they try to teach their faith. They do not die because they strapped a bomb to their chest, but instead they died simply trying to tell people about their faith. If 1 Christian martyr died by strapping a bomb to his chest and purposely killing as many innocent people of any faith, Christianity as a whole would be under attack because of this 1 person. However, there are many Islamic extremist who do this every day, yet some people seem to think it's not that bad.

Okay, so I got a little sidetracked, but my point is Muslim extremist teach their children to kill Jewish people in order to go to heaven. Israeli children are not taught to do this. Nor does the Israeli military target Muslim civilians.

OliverMarshall

03-19-2007, 10:18 PM

funnily enough, the koran doesn't teach it either

enigma

03-19-2007, 10:32 PM

A guy once pointed how out how during the medieval age that the Christian nations were very violent ... launching crusade here there and everywhere killing people for not believe .... running inquestors around burning anyone who didnt believe or being blasphemous etc

He pointed out since then, thats sorta calmed down and in his opinion its something all relgions do .... thus he hypothesized that in a decent about of time all this will stop :)

I say lets wait it out :)

Now all together now ....

Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!
Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!
They'll eat you, bash you, squish you, mash you
Chew you up for brunch
And finish you off for dinner or lunch

They're marching down the halls
They're crawling up the walls
They're gooey, gushy, squishy, mushy
Rotten to the core
They're standing outside your door

Remember Herbert Farbage
While taking out his garbage
He turned around, and he did see
Tomatoes hiding in his tree
Now he's just a memory

I know I'm going to miss her
A tomato ate my sister
Sacramento fell today
They're marching into San Jose
Tomatoes are on their way

The mayor is on vacation
The govenor's fled the nation
The police have gone on strike today
The national guard has run away
Tomatoes will have their day

Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!
Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!
They'll eat you, bash you, squish you, mash you
Chew you up for brunch
And finish you off for dinner or lunch.
Dinner or lunch, lunch, lunch...
Dinner or lunch, lunch, lunch...
Dinner or lunch...

sooch90

03-19-2007, 10:37 PM

"Israeli children are not encouraged to kill as many Palestinians as possible. Judaism does not teach children that they will go to heaven if they die killing nonbelievers (yes I know not all Muslim children are taught this, but these children certainly are)."

Ah, that's why I put that little parenthesis there. Anyway it's very controversial whether the Que'ran teaches that sort of martyrdom or not. Anyway, that's a whole different debate/topic.

What I do know is if you had a sect of Christianity or Judaism teaching Christians or Jews to commit those sort of acts, the Christian or Jewish community would rise up against that sect in protest. They would be clear to tell people that what that one sect teaches does not clearly represent the real faith. They would protest, boycott, debate against that group. However, I have not heard many liberal Muslims protesting against their extremist counterparts.

Corporate Ignorance

03-19-2007, 10:54 PM

I want to share this saying with you guys.
A Christian martyr says "I will die for what I believe in."
A Jewish martyr says "I will die for what I believe in."
A Islamic martyr says "You will die for what I believe in."
On the other hand, Christian martyrs die spreading their faith. There are many incidences of Christians going to China, North Korea, the Middle East, etc. where they die because they try to teach their faith. They do not die because they strapped a bomb to their chest, but instead they died simply trying to tell people about their faith.
Okay, so I got a little sidetracked, but my point is Muslim extremist teach their children to kill Jewish people in order to go to heaven. Israeli children are not taught to do this. Nor does the Israeli military target Muslim civilians.

Heh, Christians have done lots and lots of evil things in the name of God( that does not mean that religion itself is flawed) German Knights of Teutonic Order raised entire tribe of Prussians(who were also Christians but heretics) in Eastern Prussia, Inquisition burnt HUNDRED THOUSENDS of people, numerous Crusades against "heretics" again in the name of God brought terrible human suffering, and during colonization Christianity was often spead with the power of Spanish, English or Portugal sword not word...

And Christianity HAD and still has some extremist sects who approves violent means, although they are not so nuemrous and well-organized as Islamic fundamentalists.

But of course, Islam ws born in much more hostile surroundings and indeed voilence is more acceptable in the countries where it is considred oficcial religion, then it is in Christian countires nowadays.

enigma

03-19-2007, 11:05 PM

English sword not word...

We Brits would have used guns ... so much more civilised :D

Corporate Ignorance

03-19-2007, 11:07 PM

Yeah, indeed. Sorry.:)

sooch90

03-20-2007, 12:45 AM

Heh, Christians have done lots and lots of evil things in the name of God( that does not mean that religion itself is flawed) German Knights of Teutonic Order raised entire tribe of Prussians(who were also Christians but heretics) in Eastern Prussia, Inquisition burnt HUNDRED THOUSENDS of people, numerous Crusades against "heretics" again in the name of God brought terrible human suffering, and during colonization Christianity was often spead with the power of Spanish, English or Portugal sword not word...

And Christianity HAD and still has some extremist sects who approves violent means, although they are not so nuemrous and well-organized as Islamic fundamentalists.

But of course, Islam ws born in much more hostile surroundings and indeed voilence is more acceptable in the countries where it is considred oficcial religion, then it is in Christian countires nowadays.

Yes, I agree, Christians in the past have done some many terrible things. I could go on about this argument, but I'm just going to leave it at that. Christians have done many bad things.

However, I'm talking about the present. Christians today do not advocate the use of violence such as inquisitors, crusades, etc to convert nonbelievers.

"But of course, Islam ws born in much more hostile surroundings and indeed voilence is more acceptable in the countries where it is considred oficcial religion, then it is in Christian countires nowadays."

This is what I'm talking about. You can't come up with excuses for Muslims that make their suicide bombings seem understandable and acceptable. Purposely killing innocent civilians is not acceptable period. It doesn't matter that your religion began in a violent area. On matters where human lives are at stake, a clear distinction between good and bad must be made. If you purposely try to kill as many people as possible, it should clearly be marked as a evil action.

So back to the original point of debate, those Muslim children were being brainwashed and encouraged to commit more acts of violence, which will lead to more Israeli death.

I'm not going to say Israel is perfect, because I do agree there probably is a lot of racial tensions going around there. But they at least do not order their men to kill as many Palestinians as possible.

The whole thing there is really a huge mess.

Corporate Ignorance

03-20-2007, 12:57 AM

Agreed. Islamic fundamentalists are absolutley wrong.

But the reasons behind their suicde bombings and hatred are a litte bit more complicated.
They hate Western Word not only becaues we are infidels. But because Westerners indeed had made lots of geopolitical incurisons in the Middle-East during past and present, sucking resources, supporting secret coups etc.

It's spread throughout the Third World- hatred towards Europeans and Americans.

In 1937, Winston Churchill said of the Palestinians, I quote, "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." That set the trend for the Israeli State's attitude towards the Palestinians. In 1969, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said, "Palestinians do not exist." Her successor, Prime Minister Levi Eschol said, "What are Palestinians? When I came here (to Palestine), there were 250,000 non-Jews, mainly Arabs and Bedouins. It was a desert, more than underdeveloped. Nothing." Prime Minister Menachem Begin called Palestinians "two-legged beasts." Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir called them "grasshoppers" who could be crushed. This is the language of Heads of State, not the words of ordinary people.
Terrible things have been done on both sides of the barricade.

September 11th has a tragic resonance in the Middle East, too. On the 11th of September 1922, ignoring Arab outrage, the British government proclaimed a mandate in Palestine, a follow-up to the 1917 Balfour Declaration which imperial Britain issued, with its army massed outside the gates of Gaza. The Balfour Declaration promised European Zionists a national home for Jewish people.
In 1947, the U.N. formally partitioned Palestine and allotted 55 per cent of Palestine's land to the Zionists. Within a year, they had captured 76 per cent. On the 14th of May 1948 the State of Israel was declared. Minutes after the declaration, the United States recognized Israel. The West Bank was annexed by Jordan. The Gaza strip came under Egyptian military control, and formally Palestine ceased to exist except in the minds and hearts of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people who became refugees. In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and the Gaza strip.
Over the decades there have been uprisings, wars, intifadas. Tens of thousands have lost their lives. Accords and treaties have been signed. Cease-fires declared and violated. But the bloodshed doesn't end.

So...I don't know...Indeed it's a huge mess- with crazy Islamists-fundamintalists on the one hand, while egocentric Europeans on the other...It's all very sad.

|Crimson|

03-20-2007, 05:15 PM

I don't know why you're saying that Christianity doesn't have its extremists.
It clearly does.
Christianity was doing terrible/evil things 1000 years ago just as much as it was doing evil things 10 years ago and although it has calmed down recently it could easily start again. Although the christian extremists do have many different reasons for commiting these evil acts. Christianity and religion still plays a huge part in this bloody conflict.

Wondering what conflict I am talking about?

Anyone seen Northern Ireland?

Anyone heard of the I.R.A?

enigma

03-20-2007, 05:56 PM

Corporate Ignorance: You seem to miss out in your post that it wasnt just "imperial Britain" it was also the League of Nations which had to do with the mandate.

That the Balfour Declaration had clauses in regarding not prejudice the rights of existing communities. That this was also part of the peace treaty with the Ottomans and was also included in the League of Nations mandate.

You also do realise the British army was there as it had just been fighting a war with the Ottomans and during the time there following that they increased the quality of life for people?

It seems the only real outrage came during the influx in antisemiticism and the increase in jews escaping europe pre war.

You note how

allotted 55 per cent of Palestine's land to the Zionists. Within a year, they had captured 76 per cent

In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and the Gaza strip

You emit why these happened .... as in her neighbours attacking her or provoking her....