The Sgt Freedom Campaign.

[Moseman872{White Tiger}]

I'd like to bring to this forum the Sgt Freedom Campaign. A vacation from the
Left Wing media, and a beacon of hope to all who support our troops and know that victory is a possiblity in Iraq.
Here's the first episode:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCBWZ9S0af8
God Bless America!

[scottdog]

I'd like to bring to this forum the Sgt Freedom Campaign. A vacation from the
Left Wing media, and a beacon of hope to all who support our troops and know that victory is a possiblity in Iraq.
Here's the first episode:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCBWZ9S0af8
God Bless America!

Theres lots of left wing media in the US? Only the right wing media gets over here, e.g. Fox. Anyway i don't see how you could win the war in iraq anymore then you have now. If you look at it... you have less chance of winning it then the soviet occupation of afghanistan and even the vietnam war, because you don't even have a proper ally that supports you over there(apart from israel, thats causing more harm then good for the iraq war). The only way to maintain logistics would be to use iraqs oil, it must cost the econ heeps to wage a war that far away.

"How about we blame the person who did. How about blame the people who did it." That part made me lol.

[2ltben]

Military victory? Against who? The same kind of organizations that Israel has failed against since the 60s and 70s? There's no way we're getting out of this with anything but negotiations, concessions, and a peace treaty. And that's what people want. They don't give a shit if they win or not anymore, they just want the shooting to stop.

That said, I'm adamantly opposed to a withdrawal. Not because I believe there's still hope for a military solution in Iraq, far from it. I just want to prevent a genocide. As long as American and European soldiers are the targets of extremist groups, the other Islamic sect takes a backseat. If you think the civilian deaths are bad now, just wait until the fundamentalists don't have to use most of their resources on the occupation force.

To think a Federal government will work in Iraq is just absolutely ridiculous. A Republic will work, yes, but the only way its going to work is through Confederacy. Kurds, Shi'ites, and Sunnis should have seperate but equal representation, and within those divisions should be further seperate but equal divisions among tribes. Equal or proportional representation can be decided on when a Constitution is written, because this one obviously isn't working.

One thing people arn't willing to admit, Democrat, Republican, left, or right, is that we're in what Israel would become if the violence wasn't restrained.

[Moseman872{White Tiger}]

2ltben: No disrespect to a moderator or anything but I can't stand for anything in your post beside that we shouldn't withdraw. I mean, holy shit! Separate but Equal! If you haven't noticed, separate but equal didn't work too well here, so how is it supposted to work in Iraq?
2nd: How are we supposed get out of the war in Iraq by "negotiations, concessions, and a peace treaty"? If you didn't notice, these people want to kill us!! How are we supposed to make peace with an enemy that decapitates captured soldiers and civilians in order to support the Terroristic Islamic agenda and spread their fear tactics?
Answer me that.

[Corporate Ignorance]

2Ltben
Agreed.:)
I've noticed that we have common look on Iraqi "problem"...

[|Crimson|]

What did Iraq have to do with terrorist attacks?

[lazlazlaz1]

It supplied them, perhaps not so much as Iran, and maybe not the government as such, but it certainly was a breeding ground.

But more to the point, there is very little chance of peace with our enemy there. It is the same as in Israel, where peace talks have always failed.

[scottdog]

2ltben: No disrespect to a moderator or anything but I can't stand for anything in your post beside that we shouldn't withdraw. I mean, holy shit! Separate but Equal! If you haven't noticed, separate but equal didn't work too well here, so how is it supposted to work in Iraq?
2nd: How are we supposed get out of the war in Iraq by "negotiations, concessions, and a peace treaty"? If you didn't notice, these people want to kill us!! How are we supposed to make peace with an enemy that decapitates captured soldiers and civilians in order to support the Terroristic Islamic agenda and spread their fear tactics?
Answer me that.

If you haven't noticed the iraq war isn't just the hero Americans take all.

Have some logic Moseman, you can't just expect iraq to have a happy ending like fairytails, the best thing you could get is a comprimise, and Moseman i would love to hear your theory on how iraq is going to unfold.

I just love how America places it self as the No.1 victim and No.1 Hero.

[2ltben]

Separate but Equal! If you haven't noticed, separate but equal didn't work too well here, so how is it supposted to work in Iraq?
We're not talking about Plessy v. Fergusson. Seperate but equal in America was meant to bring one class of people viewed as inferior to the same level as the class considered superior. In Iraq, all of the classes are inherently equal, there's no superiority or inferiority amongst the tribes reflected in the society as a whole. However, if you group all of them together, they're just going to kill eachother. Like they are. Rather than change a society, as Plessy v. Fergusson had tried, a Seperate but Equal constitutional consideration in Iraq will work around the pre-existing conflicts that have arisen in Iraqi society. It doesn't try to change anything, it just tries to give these groups some breathing room and a channel to resolve their greivances peacefully. Are you saying you'd rather these people blow up markets as a means of conflict resolution? The last two years should have proven that we can't stop them from doing that.



2nd: How are we supposed get out of the war in Iraq by "negotiations, concessions, and a peace treaty"?
We're not supposed to get out. We're the United fucking States and we have an equal share of responsibility in creating the situation that the nation of Iraq is currently engulfed in. No, we're not going to get out, we're staying in until this works.


If you didn't notice, these people want to kill us!! How are we supposed to make peace with an enemy that decapitates captured soldiers and civilians in order to support the Terroristic Islamic agenda and spread their fear tactics?
Its a shitty world isn't it? Just as shitty as it was during the Thirty Years War, yet Westphalia ended that. The two warring religious sects in that war were so passionate in their hatred for the other that they refused to actually meet during the peace talks. Rather, two cities, fifty kilometers apart, hosted the same peace conference. And yet those two treaties lead to a revolution in political science that it still upheld today.

[Jensen]

"In Iraq, all of the classes are inherently equal, there's no superiority or inferiority amongst the tribes reflected in the society as a whole."

Uhm, all im going to say is Sunni vs Shjia Muslims, do they consider them self equal to each others? No they don't!

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=B3WnpUZFEyA&NR=1

[scottdog]

Jensen... I think he means race wise, this is hate not supriority.

[2ltben]

It supplied them, perhaps not so much as Iran, and maybe not the government as such, but it certainly was a breeding ground.

But more to the point, there is very little chance of peace with our enemy there. It is the same as in Israel, where peace talks have always failed.
It supplied an organization to which it is ideologically opposed? That's like saying Christians treated Jews as equals during the Crusades.

Jensen, the key isn't to listen to the fundamentalists and belligerents. This fundamentalism and militantism that exists in Iraq doesn't, for example, exist in Dearborne, Michigan. Shi'ites and Sunnis do not have any superiority or inferiority to each other, they're just different, in the same way that Protestantism is different from Russian Orthodoxy. The current Iraqi government does not recognize the differences, and to top it off the deck is stacked against the Sunnis because they were at the top when Ba'ath held power.

As long as the government does not recognize differences between tribes, differences between Muslim sects, it will not be seen as legitimate. The local level could have a further subdivision, the tribal level. Give them some sovereignty and they may just recognize the government. Take it away and you can be damn sure that they will consider this government illegitimate. In Iraq, the tribe supercedes everything. It supercedes pan-Arabism, supercedes Iraqi nationalism, supercedes religious sect. The laws of the tribe take precedence over all others.