North Korea, Children of the Secret State

[sooch90]

Here's a moving documentary on the current conditions of North Korea.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVA4kgVGmX0

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm5xiFwnOSg&mode=related&search=

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQUipc28cwA&mode=related&search=

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toOi1_7aNmM&mode=related&search=

Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEIv9gcLmt8&mode=related&search=


The North Korean people are starving. Millions have died from starvation and torture by their own government. At the moment, there isn't much we can do, only pray, and maybe donate some money to different organizations. However, a war with North Korea would not be ideal at the moment. There would be too much collateral death and damage. However, I just wanted let you all know of the condition that the North Korean people are currently in.

[scottdog]

Why can't a communist country ever live up to what it stands for?

[Total_Overkill]

Why can't a communist country ever live up to what it stands for?

Has any country or form of government actually been able to live up to its promises / what it stands for? :rolleyes:

[Kaos]

Hmmm we should take the word of a documentary on Youtube as credible? I don't know where your from but regardless; before donating to various organisations to save North Koreans how about looking into your own backyard and solving some of the issues there. Alot of "Developed" countries have a large amount poverty, homlessness, starvation and a record of poor human rights.
Why cherry pick North Korea?

[SuperSoldier]

Hmmm we should take the word of a documentary on Youtube as credible? I don't know where your from but regardless; before donating to various organisations to save North Koreans how about looking into your own backyard and solving some of the issues there. Alot of "Developed" countries have a large amount poverty, homlessness, starvation and a record of poor human rights.
Why cherry pick North Korea?

First of all there are many other documentaries which show the horrors of North Korea. I saw one on National Geographic not to long ago. The people there worship Kim Jong Il like a god for one thing even if he has their families killed. Another is there are death camps where people are starved to death if their families betray the government. One guard who managed to defect said he saw children fighting over rat feces as food. I've never seen a homeless person in a "developed" country having to eat rat feces. The homeless people in "developed" countries are way more fortunate than anyone in North Korea or poor parts of Africa imo. Also, tourists have to be told where they can go and those places are usually to the very rare richer areas.

[sooch90]

Hmmm we should take the word of a documentary on Youtube as credible? I don't know where your from but regardless; before donating to various organisations to save North Koreans how about looking into your own backyard and solving some of the issues there. Alot of "Developed" countries have a large amount poverty, homlessness, starvation and a record of poor human rights.
Why cherry pick North Korea?

There is quite a bit of substantial evidence that the atrocities occurring in North Korea are very real. There are many North Korean refugees who testify to the horrors that occur there. Eye witness accounts of prisoners being tortured, executed, people starving, etc are numerous. The problems in North Korea ARE real and very bad.

I didn't post this to try to get everyone here to donate money or anything like that. In fact, much of the money/food that is sent to North Korea is seized by its government, and sold to the people at a higher cost or even sold else where for more money. However, I did post this, just to let you all know of the conditions of North Korea. The more awareness there is for this country's problems, the better. An opportunity may arise to help these people, and perhaps by seeing this documentary, some of you will make use of that opportunity and help the North Korean people.

Again, I want to emphasize, I'm not encouraging everyone to send loads of money to different organizations. I'm not discouraging it either, if you wish to send money, then by all means please do so. I'm just trying to raise some awareness.

Note, if you do wish to donate money, it mights be best to send money to the North Korean refugees. That way there is no chance for the government to misuse the money/food you help send to the country.



Has any country or form of government actually been able to live up to its promises / what it stands for?

Well democracy works pretty well..

[DavidUpton]

@ Kaos; I don't think we need a documentary to base our judgement on the state of North Korea on. Its like the USSR MKII; on the face of it the government controlled media portrays the country as a wonderful haven, far superior to any other country in the world, but in reality the country is a complete mess.

In my view, Communism was never meant to be an effective form of government. Maybe the initial idea might have been, and perhaps under Lenin it was (slightly), but ever since Stalin the whole idea has been nothing more than a method of keeping the leaders of the country in power, with total disregard for the people. In the USSR under Stalin, for example, all that was done with Communism was to maintain the country in an 'adequate' state, whilst emphasis was put on industry and the military (both important to the integrity of the country (not the people) and therefore Stalin).

Ultimately, Communism is nothing more than a leaders tool.

[Corporate Ignorance]

David, I think you mix the terms...:)
During Cold War, in the West "Communism", as a conception, became equal with "ideological totalitarism"...The funny thing is, after Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, almost all Euroepan communists and socialists delcared that Lenin and his followers are NOT building socialicm in Russia. On the opposite.

Soviet-styled Communism, despite that it was rooted in Marxism, had nothing to do with actual theoretical socialism/communism. It's not too hard to understand why.


Wide belief is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction.

Modern Sweden is far more close to communism then Soviet Union EVER was.

The Leninist antagonism to the most essential features of socialism was evident from the very start. In revolutionary Russia, Soviets and factory committees developed as instruments of struggle and liberation, with many flaws, but with a rich potential. Lenin and Trotsky, upon assuming power, immediately devoted themselves to destroying the liberatory potential of these instruments, establishing the rule of the Party, in practice its Central Committee and its Maximal Leaders -- exactly as Trotsky had predicted years earlier, as Rosa Luxembourg and other left Marxists warned at the time, and as the anarchists had always understood. Not only the masses, but even the Party must be subject to "vigilant control from above," so Trotsky held as he made the transition from revolutionary intellectual to State priest. Before seizing State power, the Bolshevik leadership adopted much of the rhetoric of people who were engaged in the revolutionary struggle from below, but their true commitments were quite different. This was evident before and became crystal clear as they assumed State power in October 1917.

Failure to understand the intense hostility to socialism on the part of the Leninist type of states (with roots in Marx, no doubt), and corresponding misunderstanding of the Leninist model, has had a devastating impact on the struggle for a more decent society and a livable world in the West, and not only there.

[Kaos]

First of all there are many other documentaries which show the horrors of North Korea. I saw one on National Geographic not to long ago. The people there worship Kim Jong Il like a god for one thing even if he has their families killed. Another is there are death camps where people are starved to death if their families betray the government. One guard who managed to defect said he saw children fighting over rat feces as food. I've never seen a homeless person in a "developed" country having to eat rat feces. The homeless people in "developed" countries are way more fortunate than anyone in North Korea or poor parts of Africa imo. Also, tourists have to be told where they can go and those places are usually to the very rare richer areas.

That really shows your ignorance in regards to the poverty and extremely low standards of living in your country.


Well democra cy works pretty well..

Florida? That's just one example to show that 'democracy' as become corrupt as any other form of government.

"It's not the voting that's democracy; it's the counting." - Tom Stoppard

I'm not sticking up for North Korea. I think the condition many North Korean's live in is not as good as it should be and Kim Jong Il is as ruthless and corrupt as they come. But before we take the word of everything these documentaries say we should take a step back and ask why are they making them now and where are they getting their information from?

The film declares there are over 200,000 orphans in North Korea. That's the same percentage as in the USA. Life expectancy is only 4 years less than in the South and literacy is 99% compared to 97% in the South. It's also higher than the literacy rates of African Americans.

The documentary goes on to talk about censorship in North Korea. If you think the government of the USA doesn't censor the media you're deluding yourself. Selectively leaking sources, threatening journalists and deliberately ignoring the 2nd amendment and the one time right to freedom of the press are all methods of censorship used by both North Korea and the USA - not to mention alot of other countries.

Next we get stories about illegal immigrants facing execution. The only proof they have for this is hearsay and a sign saying "Never help an illegal immigrant". Most countries are pretty iffy about illegal immigrants and a couple (You know which ones) are going so far as to build walls to stop them.

Then we have more stories on poverty, China is just next door and it seems to be able to feed it's children, is the insinuation. However China's poor human rights record and it's poverty far exceeds North Korea's but we don't see a documentary on that, right? No it's far easier to have a propaganda war on a smaller country with virtually no allies. And while we're on the subject of poverty; in the US there are 3.5 million homeless and 35.9 million people live in poverty. That's more than the entire North Korean population of 28 million. Why not make a documentary on the US?!

The documentary is hypocritical and flawed. North Korea may be a horrible place to live but the evidence provided by this documentary and a few others I have seen doesn't go very far in proving it.

[sooch90]

I'm a little shocked you're even trying to compare the conditions of the North Korean people with the conditions of Americans.

First I'd like to just ask, why did you quote Tom Stoppard? I just don't see how he is relevent to the topic we're discussing.

Also, treat any statistics that the North Korean government releases with skepticism. Clearly from the videos of the North Korean guided tours, the North Korean government alters many things that put North Korea in a bad light. However, the high literacy percentage is due to the simplicity of the Korean language. It's a very very easy language to learn. My father told me that when he was a child living in South Korea during the 1950s, 60s, and 70s (a time when South Korea was as undeveloped as North Korea), everyone knew how to read and write, no matter how poor he or she was. However, North Korean children are educated (and brain washed).

Being an orphan in North Korea is very different from being an orphan in America. First of all, did you not see the footages of the orphans in North Korea? They were foraging for food, and picking up scraps on the ground. They were alone, without family, without anyone to take care of them.
An orphan in America at least has an orphanage, or foster families to take care of them. I'm not saying it's easy to be an orphan in America, it's never easy being an orphan anywhere, but it is a bit easier than being an orphan in North Korea.

I think if we begin to argue about how much the U.S. government censors the media, we will get off on a tangent. However, if you criticize George W. Bush in America, you don't get thrown in to a "reeducation camp"! All of the media outlets (radio, television, newspaper) are controlled by the government, and are completely dedicated to praising Kim Jong Il and the North Korean government. Clearly, and I mean CLEARLY America is not anywhere CLOSE to being as bad as North Korea as far as censoring the media. Just considering the fact that many American television stations criticize the American government and George W. Bush, I think it's pretty clear that the American government does little to censor its country's media. But again, let's not get in to an argument about this here, let's agree to disagree on this topic (at least in this thread).

Again, there is a difference between immigrants and emigrants in America and in North Korea. In America, you are free to leave the country if you wish to (with the proper paper work, etc), and you can enter the country as well (again with the proper paper work). In North Korea, there are very few instances where the government has allowed anyone to enter or leave the country. Obviously there are some drastic consequences for trying to leave North Korea because so few people are willing to even attempt it. Furthermore, there are eye witness accounts of the punishments people face for trying to do such things. Now these accounts are pretty consistent, and unless you think that every North Korean refugee is simply lying about the atrocities that occur there, the accounts are probably pretty accurate as well.


Now, you seem to miss the point of these documentaries. They are trying to raise awareness for the situation in North Korea. It doesn't mean that they're trying to say that no other country has its problems. However, they do imply that the situation in North Korea is very grim, and to some extent worse than other countries. Which in many cases, is true. Poverty in Korea is probably much worse than poverty in America. The average North Korean makes around $900 annually.

But once again, the documentary is not saying that other countries do not have problems. It's also not saying that everyone's resources should be focused on improving North Korea. It's raising awareness, yet you criticize it as if it were doing something wrong. And why not make a documentary on the U.S.? Well first of all, I'm sure there are documentaries, second of all maybe it's not as bad as North Korea?


Simply it comes down to this. There are numerous testimonies given by North Korea refugees about the atrocities that occur in North Korea . They speak of torture, poverty, extreme propaganda (to the point of brainwash), etc. If you think that these witnesses are liars, then so be it. Move on, and ignore their testimonies. However, I hope that many people will stop and acknowledge the conditions of North Korea, and maybe even help to alleviate some of the North Korean suffering.

Also, I have said my point, and I will abstain from making any more lengthy posts arguing about this topic, simply because it will probably be a waste of time.

[Minicow]

And while we're on the subject of poverty; in the US there are 3.5 million homeless and 35.9 million people live in poverty. That's more than the entire North Korean population of 28 million. Why not make a documentary on the US?!
Because the poverty line in America is in drastic need of readjustment. It's giving a very inaccurate view of the state of the US. The poverty line is supposed to be "the point at which one can no longer maintain an adequate standard of living." I wouldn't say that this (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm) fits that definition very well. Though many are certainly worse off, even the poorest of the poor in America can eat better out of a restaurant dumpster than many North Koreans can.

[Kaos]

Because the poverty line in America is in drastic need of readjustment. It's giving a very inaccurate view of the state of the US. The poverty line is supposed to be "the point at which one can no longer maintain an adequate standard of living." I wouldn't say that this (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm) fits that definition very well. Though many are certainly worse off, even the poorest of the poor in America can eat better out of a restaurant dumpster than many North Koreans can.

There's plenty more than can be said about this topic but this thread is almost a month old...

My whole point in this thread has been to check your sources and make sure they're reliable before automatically assuming everything they say is 100% the truth. On that note, you linked us too The Heritage Foundation - One of the largest right-wing think tanks in the US. Sorry if I can't a group seriously if they run articles like "Bin Laden Sounds Like a Liberal" and "How the surge advances freedom in Iraq".

[SWAT Pointman]

The condition the country is in isn't because of communism, it's because of their shitty leader. You can be capitalist and still have war,poverty, and starvation.