8 dead in Finland school shooting

[SuperSoldier]

An 18-year-old student opened fire in a Finnish high school Wednesday, killing seven students and the principal before turning the gun on himself, police said.
The teenager, who was not identified, shot himself in the head but survived for a time. He died at Toolo Hospital, chief doctor Eero Hirvensalo said.
The attack at Jokela High School in Tuusula, some 30 miles north of the capital, Helsinki, shocked the Nordic nation, where gun ownership is fairly common by European standards but deadly shootings are rare.
Finnish media reported that in 1989 a 14-year-old boy shot and killed two students, apparently for teasing him.
Police said at a news conference after the attack that the gunman in Wednesday's attack shot the victims — five boys, two girls and the female principal — with a .22-caliber pistol. About a dozen other people were injured as they tried to escape the school, police said.
"He was from an ordinary family," police chief Matti Tohkanen said about the gunman, who belonged to a gun club and got a license for the pistol Oct. 19. He did not have a previous criminal record, he said.
Finnish media said the shooter revealed his plans in a YouTube posting before the attack.
The video, titled "Jokela High School Massacre," showed a picture of a building by a lake that appeared to be the high school, along with two photos of a young man holding a handgun. The person who posted the video was identified in the user profile as an 18-year-old man from Finland. The posting was later removed.
The profile contained a text calling for a "revolution against the system."
Another YouTube video clip showed a young man clad in a dark jacket loading a clip into a handgun and firing several shots at an apple placed on the ground in a forested area. He smiled and waved to the camera at the end of the clip.
A third clip showed photos of what appeared to be same man posing with a gun and wearing a T-shirt with the text "Humanity is overrated."
Police said they would investigate any possible connection the gunman might have had to the video.
Terhi Vayrynen, 17, a student at the school told The Associated Press that her brother Henri Vayrynen, 13, and his classmates had witnessed the shooting of the principal outside the school through the classroom window.
She said the gunman then came into Henri Vayrynen's class shouting: "Revolution! Smash everything!"
When no one did anything, he shot the TV and the windows of the class room but did not fire at the students. The he ran out and down the corridor, Terhi Vayrynen said.
Kim Kiuru, a teacher at the school, said the principal announced over the public address system just before noon that all students should remain in their classrooms.
"After that I saw the gunman running with what appeared to be a small-caliber handgun in his hand through the doors toward me after which I escaped to the corridor downstairs and ran in the opposite direction," Kiuru told reporters.

Kiuru said he saw a woman's body as he fled the building.
"Then my pupils shouted at me out of the windows to ask what they should do and I told them to jump out of the windows ... and all my pupils were saved," Kiuru said.
More than 400 students, from 12 to 18, were enrolled at Jokela, officials said. Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen described the situation as "extremely tragic," and declared Thursday a day of national mourning with flags to be flown half-staff.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071107/ap_on_re_eu/finland_school_shooting&printer=1;_ylt=AlZ3DSdk75NFBFuPMJLQ2QVbbBAF

Here's a Facepunch thread with more info:
http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/showthread.php?t=444989

I mean, why?

Here is a quote from his youtube profile:


aka NaturalSelector89 (3/15/2007 - 10/19/2007).

YouTube suspended my previous account but I am back now http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/smile.png My new account name is German and means "Stormspirit" in English.

http://************com/files/68 (http://************com/files/68) 015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jo kela_High_School_Massacre.zip
Name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen
Age: 18

Male from Finland.

I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

Justice renders to everyone his due.

As you can see, he was insane.

[SpitFireMarkA1]

What can possibly f*** up a persons mind like this? :eek:

[biggles]

Damn.....that sunuva......!!!!!!:mad:

I mean why? So stupid, so sad, so tragic.
These things has happened over the pond several times, but I can't recall that it's happened in the Nordic before. When it happens in my lovely neighbouring country of Finland, I just get sick. It might as well happen here.

Something is wrong with this society when there is people like him that thinks it's cool to go off in a blaze-of-glory, when, ofcourse, it's really a blaze of stupidity.

Watching a picture of him on the web now....having a T-Shirt with the text "Humanity is overrated". Maybe. But one thing for is for sure: trying to make yourself important in this world with violence: THAT is overrated, 'cause it always ends with tears. Now 8 people are dead. 8 students gets killed by a fucking macho type with a gun. Damn I'm pissed. And the bastard won't get a punishment good enough, since he's dead.......

[Katulobotomia]

I was near that school today..but didn't realize what was going on in there :O This is truly shocking for Finland...massacres like this has never happened in Finland before. These things only happen in the news we hear from outside, but not inside our borders? I am so blown off by this, it's so sad and unfortunate that a fucked up kid like him does something like this.

R.I.P all you innocent bystanders that got in the way. Let's hope that nothing like this never happens again. Finland will light a candel for the victims today, all the schools are having a silent minute for the memory. I already put up a candle for them. May you rest in peace, but the attacker burn in hell.

[Combine]

How tragic...Seems like the Virginia Tech shootings had a big influence on him, seeing how much stuff he put online before

and I second Katulobotomia's post

[Lord Justin]

As you can see, he was insane.

That's not insanity. Insanity is when someone is in the fetal position in the corner laughing at the funny flying elephant-fox that keeps tickling them. No, this is just the very unfortunate product of society.

His Youtube bio thing looks so much like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's (Columbine) tapes and journals...it shows two things: that these people all take each other's ideas and expand upon them, and that all over the world, developed societies are producing similar anomalies with similar ideals and goals.


May you rest in peace, but the attacker burn in hell.

I don't think it's right to wish such things on people. He was a kid, and he was disillusioned, just a sad misguided kid that didn't get a chance to mentally mature by growing up. Of course it's terribly, terribly terrible what he did to innocent people, but if spirits do exist and our curses toward him make his spirit suffer, I have to defend him. Had he simply known what the fuck he was actually doing, he would've stopped in his tracks and threw down his gun. What we need to do with people like this is sympathize and understand, and show them their cause is, in reality, not "pure" like they say it is.

Sadly, this is just another misguided mind that we cannot help, because he acted on his ignorance and now he, and others, have paid the ultimate price.

May the victims be at peace, and may the attacker know his error and be set right.

[Fallschirmjäger]

What is the age then in finland to use guns?,and no compulsory military service to maybe sort his problems out or stop them happening.Like not very tuff to do that at all,go to afghanistan and fight the taliban who fire back and not people in a school.
Also these shooters or many it seems take the suicide way out and not go out shooting with the police.Is this because there wimps or dont want to be captured alive i suppose,but maybe the other ones who do the shoot outs with the cops like the austin texas shooter(charles whitman,the first mass school shooter in 1966,unless there is one before i dont know of?).Our own david gray(not school shooting) in 1990 new zealand did so beacause they do have mental problems,whitman had some tumor in his head when they checked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramoana_massacre
(David gray shooting)

[SuperSoldier]

That's not insanity. Insanity is when someone is in the fetal position in the corner laughing at the funny flying elephant-fox that keeps tickling them. No, this is just the very unfortunate product of society.

His Youtube bio thing looks so much like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's (Columbine) tapes and journals...it shows two things: that these people all take each other's ideas and expand upon them, and that all over the world, developed societies are producing similar anomalies with similar ideals and goals.



I don't think it's right to wish such things on people. He was a kid, and he was dillusioned, just a sad misguided kid that didn't get a chance to mentally mature by growing up. Of course it's terribly, terribly terrible what he did to innocent people, but if spirits do exist and our curses toward him make his spirit suffer, I have to defend him. Had he simply known what the fuck he was actually doing, he would've stopped in his tracks and threw down his gun. What we need to do with people like this is sympathize and understand, and show them their cause is, in reality, not "pure" like they say it is.

Sadly, this is just another misguided mind that we cannot help, because he acted on his ignorance and now he, and others, have paid the ultimate price.

May the victims be at peace, and may the attacker know his error and be set right.

How about "disillusioned?"

[Bunglo]

Yah, killing some people at a school is really going to change something:rolleyes: What the hell do these people think they're going to change by doing this??? If this kid was bullied his whole life, it would make more sense but it still wouldn't justify his actions by any means at all. Morons like this kid and others who think they can change how the world is ran by killing innocent people are truly disillusioned. A much better, smarter thing to do would have been to get into the political scene and try and work his way to the top if he really wanted to even attempt to change something in this world...

[Fallschirmjäger]

When is the day going to come when if one of these happens,that someone shoots them first or beats the crap out if one of them,if they get the chance.But i suppose a gun,knife etc... is a big thing to go up against and many want to save themselves first and others if they can.

Like i say i would want to be brave if i ever came up apon this type of thing and do something to stop it,or not disgrace myself.Like sometimes in these shootings if i was going down,i would try to fight back the best i could,frow things,charge at them etc..,not hide and wait for them to come if i knew it was coming.
Like dying without trying sounds stink,but then i may be different when it happens,we dont know how we will react when it comes.I could just run like hell and get away or get shot in the back etc...

[Kaos]

Yah, killing some people at a school is really going to change something:rolleyes: What the hell do these people think they're going to change by doing this??? If this kid was bullied his whole life, it would make more sense but it still wouldn't justify his actions by any means at all. Morons like this kid and others who think they can change how the world is ran by killing innocent people are truly disillusioned. A much better, smarter thing to do would have been to get into the political scene and try and work his way to the top if he really wanted to even attempt to change something in this world...

I've heard a few reports claiming he was bullied for pretty much his entire school life, but as you said it doesn't justify actions only goes someway in giving a possible explanation.

I, for one, blame violent movies, loud music, video games, Youtube, Myspace, Facebook and Google.

[Timblesink]

Next time someone wants to do something like this, they should shoot themselves first.

[Fallschirmjäger]

I, for one, blame violent movies, loud music, video games, Youtube, Myspace, Facebook and Google.

But there are people,most realy who do all these things and are fine and dont go out and kill people.But suppose it dose effect a certian amount for shure,but we are not going to stop using these things anytime soon.So shootings will happen,but have so for sometime too before these things where around.
Seeing the signs and people to take care of them before that and even going back to there family and upbringing where it can start down this road shooters go.

[Joose Keppilä]

The Killer was fully accountable for his actions and very deliberate in his way of doing this. He was not crazy in that sense. Maybe he was 'just' disillusioned, angry and depressed. But he definitely wasn't sane either. Whatever pathethic justification he sought in his mind, he was acting out of pure malice and was looking for fame in a sick way.

I hold the society accountable for a few matters too. First of all, why no one noticed his mental state before this happend, and the stunning fact that he was allowed to get a gun permit just a month before the shooting. It is far too easy to get licenses for semi automatic 'sports' weapons even in this country. Someone said there are about 2 million hand guns in Finland (a country of 5 million people).

[Fallschirmjäger]

That shure is a lot of guns for that population,i think new zealand as a lot for its population too,the most per head?,the u.s has so many too for its country.Like NZ has over 4 million people,i thought for awhile finland and way more than us,say double atleast,and on the army service question again,is it compulsory in finland or not?.

[Katulobotomia]

...and on the army service question again,is it compulsory in finland or not?.

Yes, only 6 months today, but the training is more intense (for example I got my weapon just 4 days in service and was put to the range the same day). You can go to civil service, but thats a 12 month job. If you don't go to army or civil-service you go to jail.

Imagine what this guy would have done if he was in the army operating a tank or other weapons. I just hope no one gets the idea to start going on a rampage in army while operating some weapon. There are a lot of armed troops in Helsinki from time to time. If someone starts to gather ammo and goes wild on a city in full combat gear, stopping him would be twice harder, since all the training and gear he has he could do some serious damage.

[Kaos]

But there are people,most realy who do all these things and are fine and dont go out and kill people.But suppose it dose effect a certian amount for shure,but we are not going to stop using these things anytime soon.So shootings will happen,but have so for sometime too before these things where around.
Seeing the signs and people to take care of them before that and even going back to there family and upbringing where it can start down this road shooters go.

I don't actually believe that... I was making a comment on the predictable media reaction whenever a tragedy like this occurs. The knee-jerk reaction is always to 'blame' some third party - usually music, film or video games. It's a really stupid thing to do because as you pointed out there's no correlation. The vast majority of people who play games don't kill, and the vast majority of murderers don't play videogames (though with WoW, I'm not too sure anymore).

[Katulobotomia]

I don't actually believe that... I was making a comment on the predictable media reaction whenever a tragedy like this occurs. The knee-jerk reaction is always to 'blame' some third party - usually music, film or video games. It's a really stupid thing to do because as you pointed out there's no correlation. The vast majority of people who play games don't kill, and the vast majority of murderers don't play videogames (though with WoW, I'm not too sure anymore).

If a person commits massacre or a murder because of a video-game...the person is not mentally healthy to begin with. Blaming the video-game is just short-term solution for the actual problem.

There was a time when dancing was considered to be corrupting the youth, and that it was the works of the devil. Then it was some books that corrupted the youth, then films...and now games. The youth has always been corrupted and evil, influenced by what they like the most and what is increasingly becoming more and more popular among them.

[Blame Canada]

May the victims (except for that crazy bastard) rest in peace...

Here in Denmark it happened at my university as well back in 1994...

[Fallschirmjäger]

Yes, only 6 months today, but the training is more intense (for example I got my weapon just 4 days in service and was put to the range the same day). You can go to civil service, but thats a 12 month job. If you don't go to army or civil-service you go to jail.

Imagine what this guy would have done if he was in the army operating a tank or other weapons. I just hope no one gets the idea to start going on a rampage in army while operating some weapon. There are a lot of armed troops in Helsinki from time to time. If someone starts to gather ammo and goes wild on a city in full combat gear, stopping him would be twice harder, since all the training and gear he has he could do some serious damage.

Thanks for the info Katulobotomia,so at 18 then?,like he was not called up yet,and the military person massacre i have not herd to much of,though shure remember a few over the years,and this recent italian military?one,killing one only.
And yes Kaos they do blame thess things first up and then go into other things later.I saw on th enet too about how he had 500 rounds on him i think and used 69 of them,lucky not more dead,he shot some a few times others 20(maybe the principal).He had no criminal background,and how he got his licence on the 19th of october and is a gun club.

[Thanato]

I am going to move this because it seems better in the political forum.

~Thanato

[Katulobotomia]

Thanks for the info Katulobotomia,so at 18 then?,like he was not called up yet
...
I bet he were in the "recruiting" occasion, but no he never got into army. You usually have to go into army at the age of 20.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Thanks for the info,and i forget now as usual,but you did your 6 months and is it like the part time army for years after that to do training and remember what you learnt etc...

[Oddvin]

Supposedly one of the persons shot was shot 20(!!!) times. And the weapon he used only had a 10 round magazine. That means that person must have done something terrible towards him....For him to reload shoot the whole clip, reload again. Then fire another 10 rounds into that one person.

[masasan]

Thanks for the info,and i forget now as usual,but you did your 6 months and is it like the part time army for years after that to do training and remember what you learnt etc...

The time you spent in the army is 6, 9 or 12 months depending on your role in the army and weather you are trained as leadership roles or not.

After that you are moved to reserves and called up again after few years to do some training and remember what you learnt.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Thanks for that info masasan,i thought maybe after you first training it was like every year for so many weeks(maybe thats switzerland?).But every few years is not to bad realy and would be maybe up to you where 40+?.

I wish they had it here in NZ,so i could get in for shure i think,as a few wanted it here like they did have in the 50's-60's i think it was last?.I did try our part time army back in the 90's,just not fit enough to go through it all,and attitude problems,and finaly packing it in.But being compulsory you would have to keep going right until you passed there tests, and like given the time too do them, as you cant quit right,or its off to the civil service or jail.

[sloth]

Its Terrible that people would do stuff like that

[2ltben]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071107/ap_on_re_eu/finland_school_shooting&printer=1;_ylt=AlZ3DSdk75NFBFuPMJLQ2QVbbBAF

Here's a Facepunch thread with more info:
http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/showthread.php?t=444989

I mean, why?

Here is a quote from his youtube profile:


As you can see, he was insane.
Because if there's any place that needs freedom from totalitarian oppression, its Finland. This is exactly why anyone who has access to a deadly weapon needs to undergo a deep psychological analysis.

[masasa]

Because if there's any place that needs freedom from totalitarian oppression, its Finland.

That is actually true if you think about it from perspective of economics. We let our goverment decide where we spend our money and by super high taxation. Our goverment endorses structural unemployment by shoving money to dying communes slowing down the much needed movement of labor. We prevent our industry from competing in global markets by raising wages without raise in productivity. Our goverment increases the income gap by taxing lightly the rich and hevily the middle class. Our social wellfare system is designed to destroy incentives for people to find a job.

The funny thing is that this is what finnish people want and vote for. We blindly trust our goverment to make the right decisions for us, even though our monetary history is a unique example of bad decision after another.

Ok, sorry for off topic.

[Corporate Ignorance]

It's absolutley terrible and very, very sad...


What freaks the hell out of me is that the result of such "brave and decadant revolt against the cruel system" results in shooting kids...What a disgusting and sorrowful situation.
Eh, words are vain in such cases, to my mind. There is something deeply wrong in humans this days.

[Katulobotomia]

That is actually true if you think about it from perspective of economics. We let our goverment decide where we spend our money and by super high taxation. Our goverment endorses structural unemployment by shoving money to dying communes slowing down the much needed movement of labor. We prevent our industry from competing in global markets by raising wages without raise in productivity. Our goverment increases the income gap by taxing lightly the rich and hevily the middle class. Our social wellfare system is designed to destroy incentives for people to find a job.

The funny thing is that this is what finnish people want and vote for. We blindly trust our goverment to make the right decisions for us, even though our monetary history is a unique example of bad decision after another.

Ok, sorry for off topic.

wot?...can't believe you live in Finland :D Finland taxes people based on their income. I hope you are paying your taxes too. If you dont have income...you dont pay them. The more you get income per month you need to pay more and more. SO, the richer you are the higher your taxes are. Finland is the worst country to live if you are rich...and the best country in the world if you are poor or middle-class

[masasa]

wot?...can't believe you live in Finland :D Finland taxes people based on their income. I hope you are paying your taxes too. If you dont have income...you dont pay them. The more you get income per month you need to pay more and more. SO, the richer you are the higher your taxes are. Finland is the worst country to live if you are rich...and the best country in the world if you are poor or middle-class

That would be true if rich people would get their income through wages, but they get them through capital income, which is taxed lightly.

Anyway, the point is that middle class is taxed very hevily, which destroys our purchasing power and leads to huge social wellfare programs that are not productive or efficient. Eventually we can't afford this system and then what happens?

[Katulobotomia]

That would be true if rich people would get their income through wages, but they get them through capital income, which is taxed lightly.

Anyway, the point is that middle class is taxed very hevily, which destroys our purchasing power and leads to huge social wellfare programs that are not productive or efficient. Eventually we can't afford this system and then what happens?

um...ain't Finlands welfare/social security the best in ze world with sweden and Norway? In no other country you get as much money free as you do in here, not to mention health-care and the other free things we have here that are considered normal.
Go to <censored>, break a leg and you will wish you would have a number to call that will take care of you for free to the point you are healed completely. Youd wish youd have a government that pays for your childrens schools. Youd love to drink crystal clear water from the tap. Hell...if I would get mentally ill or loose my job...I would get more money free than people earn in a month in Turkey....there you are lucky to have 200euro per month for being a waiter, here you get easily 800 euro just for not working. Told one person in Turkey that and he laughed and didnt believe me, and he was working 15 hours a day 7 a week and gets roughly 200-300 euro per month IF his boss feels like it. But going side-topic now, taxes are high yes, but I am willing to pay them for all the luxury we have here for free.

[biggles]

I'm with ya mate, and Sweden has the highest taxes in the world.... Pay X% taxes? Sure, if that means that I won't pay half my bloody house to fix a broken leg.....

[|:XAS:| Bravo]

Economics? Dang I was expecting this thread to be about gun control. I'm doing a research paper on the topic right now, siding with the pro-gun guys.

[2ltben]

That is actually true if you think about it from perspective of economics. We let our goverment decide where we spend our money and by super high taxation. Our goverment endorses structural unemployment by shoving money to dying communes slowing down the much needed movement of labor. We prevent our industry from competing in global markets by raising wages without raise in productivity. Our goverment increases the income gap by taxing lightly the rich and hevily the middle class. Our social wellfare system is designed to destroy incentives for people to find a job.

The funny thing is that this is what finnish people want and vote for. We blindly trust our goverment to make the right decisions for us, even though our monetary history is a unique example of bad decision after another.

Ok, sorry for off topic.
Which is largely the "problem" with the United States economic system. Despite what the radicals on both ends of the spectrum say, the United States is far from totalitarian, though I and many others could make a case for strong-armed Facism in our foreign policy. That being said, my town does not have a curfew. The highway that leads back home from university has no checkpoints. I'm not subject to arbitrary searches or arrests. This cannot be said of other places.

As far as job incentives, before that question is even raised you must, must exhaust another, do these opportunities exist? If not, why? If you can't see a way to ask "Why?" about something, you're just being obtuse.

And Bravo, out of sheer curiosity, what are your arguments for your side of the argument? And keep in mind one very important thing about papers of this nature, your opinion is your opinion, it is not fact nor is it the Holy Grail of the issue at hand. Always state possibilities that may refute your argument. That being said, feel free to poke holes in those refutations. It is an argument you're in favor of, after all. Just don't get slanderous or pathological about it.

[Katulobotomia]

In Finland...we have third highest number of guns per resident in the world. But murders with firearms are very rare here. And shootings like this are first of their kind. Why? I think because of our past. When we see a gun we respect it and fear it. It's impossible/hard here to own a gun without getting labeled as an asshole.

[Xendance]

In Finland...we have third highest number of guns per resident in the world. But murders with firearms are very rare here. And shootings like this are first of their kind. Why? I think because of our past. When we see a gun we respect it and fear it. It's impossible/hard here to own a gun without getting labeled as an asshole.

Wtf are you talking? Are hunters labeled as assholes? The person is an asshole if he constantly brags that "Ooooh lookie I have a gun".

[masasa]

um...ain't Finlands welfare/social security the best in ze world with sweden and Norway? In no other country you get as much money free as you do in here, not to mention health-care and the other free things we have here that are considered normal.
Go to <censored>, break a leg and you will wish you would have a number to call that will take care of you for free to the point you are healed completely. Youd wish youd have a government that pays for your childrens schools. Youd love to drink crystal clear water from the tap. Hell...if I would get mentally ill or loose my job...I would get more money free than people earn in a month in Turkey....there you are lucky to have 200euro per month for being a waiter, here you get easily 800 euro just for not working. Told one person in Turkey that and he laughed and didnt believe me, and he was working 15 hours a day 7 a week and gets roughly 200-300 euro per month IF his boss feels like it. But going side-topic now, taxes are high yes, but I am willing to pay them for all the luxury we have here for free.

It is funny how you say that "I'm willing to pay to get something for free". The things you described are not free, you pay for it. Goverment doesn't have any money, it just distributes the money that it took from us, and it does that in a non productive and inefficient way.

Don't get me wrong here. Goverment should support healthcare and education through taxation, but organizing those should be executed in competetive markets. That way we would have the same services with lower price and more choice. Also we should have a social safenet, but it should not discourage getting a job like it does now(because you get more money by not working).

[2ltben]

It is funny how you say that "I'm willing to pay to get something for free". The things you described are not free, you pay for it. Goverment doesn't have any money, it just distributes the money that it took from us, and it does that in a non productive and inefficient way.

Don't get me wrong here. Goverment should support healthcare and education through taxation, but organizing those should be executed in competetive markets. That way we would have the same services with lower price and more choice. Also we should have a social safenet, but it should not discourage getting a job like it does now(because you get more money by not working).
Most conceptions about the welfare program have been proven wrong time and again by sociologists. For the same reason a person would refuse charity as it is seen as compromising one's dignity, people on social welfare programs strive to be independent, not having to rely on a dole from Johnny Government every month to get by.

If people make more money by staying on a welfare program, I think that says far more about the minimum wage laws than it does about the welfare program. The welfare system seems to be supporting a minimum standard of living that even independent wage earners cannot achieve, but going on welfare would be sacrificing your independence and self-reliance, something most would value above their paycheck.

Welfare can be very Pareto efficient and does live up to the Fundamental Theorems of Welfare Economics. Welfare doesn't target the poor. I don't know the numbers for Finland, but the vast majority of welfare issued in America(some 60-80% of all funds distributed) are given to either corporations or the richest 20%.

[Forrmonster]

Wow, this is todays future, a bunch of kids who can't solve their problems by talking with someone, or with just maybe punching the kid in the face. They have to pull a gun, I say, if you got a problem with someone, knock on their ass.

[Marcel_D]

Revolution he says...senseless violence is all it is. I always thought the last things these shooters do should be their first. Instead they have to take a few unfortunate people out with them.

[Appleskates]

Wow, this is todays future, a bunch of kids who can't solve their problems by talking with someone, or with just maybe punching the kid in the face. They have to pull a gun, I say, if you got a problem with someone, knock on their ass.

I hate a lot of people, too. That doesn't mean I want to go out and kill them. I find a lot of the people at my school tend to be needlessly self-adoring and, dare i say it, "gangsta". I hate rap, I have always harbored a loathing for "gangsta" culture, but I know that all of them are going to grow out of it at some point. That's basically how high school should be. To me, high school gauges how happy you will be later in life and in college. The more socially awkward you are, generally the happier you are later. This kid just couldn't handle it.

Different people are naturally more emotionally fragile or easily angered. I take my rage out by running or listening to heavy metal. Unfortunately, others such as this kid just happen to only know violence. His note does have a point, society is fucked up in many ways (IMHO). But you know, it's a system, a system which, for lack of a better one, works. People need to work within it to change it. The saddest people are the ones who don't realize that in order to alter it, you need to use it.

[Kaos]

I hate a lot of people, too. That doesn't mean I want to go out and kill them. I find a lot of the people at my school tend to be needlessly self-adoring and, dare i say it, "gangsta". I hate rap, I have always harbored a loathing for "gangsta" culture, but I know that all of them are going to grow out of it at some point. That's basically how high school should be. To me, high school gauges how happy you will be later in life and in college. The more socially awkward you are, generally the happier you are later. This kid just couldn't handle it.

Different people are naturally more emotionally fragile or easily angered. I take my rage out by running or listening to heavy metal. Unfortunately, others such as this kid just happen to only know violence. His note does have a point, society is fucked up in many ways (IMHO). But you know, it's a system, a system which, for lack of a better one, works. People need to work within it to change it. The saddest people are the ones who don't realize that in order to alter it, you need to use it.

Alright I don't want to deviate, but let us not combine two separate subcultures, that of hip-hop and 'gangsta'. The culture of hip-hop has been around since the 70's and the 'gangsta' phenomenon is relatively new. I dislike heavy metal, but I don't hate people merely because of the fact they listen to it, or if they associate themselves with a 'metal' culture.

People associate with each other if they find something in common, like the music example we just talked about. This kid obviously didn't find anyone to be friends with and decided to kill people instead. As abhorrent as it is, I think it's hypocritical for certain sections of society to be hypocritical about it when in their view violence is a legitimate method of dealing with problems. That's one of the reasons why Conservatives in America either stay silent when there's a massacre or argue for a lessening of laws.

The general consensus is "Ok violence is ok when the police do it against minority groups, it's ok for us to invade and slaughter when we like, it's ok for certain citizens to 'protect' themselves, it's ok to portray violence as something to be respected, but when a kid grows up in that world and chooses to use extreme violence to sort out his problems then that's not ok?"

The loss of an innocent life is the loss of an innocent life. Whether it was a mentally unstable kid, or a legally sanctioned war. We need to get a better appreciation for human life, collectively, if we want to stop shit like this happening.

[2ltben]

One serious factor that is a cause of all bad things in general is a lack of empathy. Look at the villain in modern literature, he is more or less defined as one who lacks empathy towards the protagonists.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Omaha gunman freed from centers, homes.
Well did not want to start another thread,so thought would mention there had been another shooting in the u.s on wedesday i think u.s time in omaha nebraska.

Another youth with a SKS/AK 47 they had said killing 8 in a shopping mall there,5 females and 3 males,7 in the store area(6 workers there),and 1 in lower floor.He then killed himself as many of these shooters do,security missed stoping him just before the shooting,Had they done so though,it could still have been a shooting incident.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071206/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting

[2ltben]

Something I've been pondering of late: what, if any, difference is there between these young kids who go on shooting sprees and the young kids who join African militias or Islamic militant groups?

[masasan]

Something I've been pondering of late: what, if any, difference is there between these young kids who go on shooting sprees and the young kids who join African militias or Islamic militant groups?

Well obviously there is a big difference. Those who go berserk killing sprees are mentally fucked up and there are only few cases(although these cases get huge amount of publicity) when compared to the other 2.

I don't know about young kids "joining" African militias but afaik most of them are forced to do it.

To comment Islamic militant groups I'd first need to know what you mean by those? Do you mean insurgents who one could argue to fight against the occupiers? Do you mean suicide terrorist who intend to create chaos by killing civilians? Anyway, young kids joining those will definitely have some other reason than some school kid going berserk.

It would help if you would say what are the things you find similar of those 3 cases so I could agree or disagree.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Denver gunman 'hated Christians'
Well there where more shootings in the u.s again,and so close to the holiday season too.There where 2 shootings too,and both have been concfirmed as the same gunman,at megachurch and a missionary training school.Luckily he was shot by a security guard,there not shure if that killed him or he did himself in,but it stopped him killing more i think.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071210/9/390l.html


Colo. church gunman had been kicked out.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071211/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings

[2ltben]

Well obviously there is a big difference. Those who go berserk killing sprees are mentally fucked up and there are only few cases(although these cases get huge amount of publicity) when compared to the other 2.
True. I suppose a better American analogue would be gangs.


I don't know about young kids "joining" African militias but afaik most of them are forced to do it.
That all depends on the situation. A good many are absconded at an early age and indoctrinated, never even given a chance. But still, in their minds the militia is a place that accepts them, a place where they feel they fit in. In their minds, they're being taken care of by their leaders, they (unfortunately) are surrounded by boys their own age. They're not saying to themselves, "I'm never going to make anything of my life, I'm being forced to fight for these people," they're saying, "I get to fight for these people, for I am one of them. This is where I belong."


To comment Islamic militant groups I'd first need to know what you mean by those? Do you mean insurgents who one could argue to fight against the occupiers? Do you mean suicide terrorist who intend to create chaos by killing civilians? Anyway, young kids joining those will definitely have some other reason than some school kid going berserk.
Insurgents fighting occupiers arn't Islamic, they just may be in an Arab state. I'm talking of militant groups lead by ideologues who want full control to impose their will upon a body of people, like the Islamic Republic Party of post-revolutionary Iran.

These kids strapping bombs to themselves or going on shooting sprees arn't doing it for shits and giggles, they have well founded reasons implanted in their minds for doing such things. If you can't find a place to ask "Why?" then you arn't trying hard enough. There's always an underlying reason for everything, to mark them off as random acts of violence or acts of a psychotic and never return to them is oversimplified bullshit. If they were random acts of individuals, why are they happening so damn often? There's a problem to be addressed, not necessarily by an organization, but by yourself as an individual. They were human individuals and they're dead, at least give them the courtesy of consideration.

[masasa]

Well, I try to keep this simple. I think school/other shooters don't have much to do with the other 2 cases you said because of this:

1. In case of african militias and islamic militants, I would think that young kinds are mostly victims of circumstances. Generally these kids are not psychos/crazy/mentally challenged, they join these groups because it is the only choice they see ahead of them.

2. These shooters who make into the headlines however are offered different paths on what to do with their lives. They might also be victims of circumstances to some degree, yes, but they have a choice in their minds. They live in western democracy in a stable society and have heard and seen other possible paths. Why they choose the killing spree path is because they are crazy, no matter how well founded their ideas are in their heads. And yes, these are random acts of individuals that don't happen often, if you compare it to the other 2 cases.

Also, can you list the similarities you find in all these 3 cases you mentioned so it is easier for me to comment them?

[2ltben]

They live in western democracy in a stable society and have heard and seen other possible paths.
Do you think Western democracies don't have gang violence? The reasons for joining a gang are the same as the reasons for joining a militia or militant group.

[masasa]

Do you think Western democracies don't have gang violence? The reasons for joining a gang are the same as the reasons for joining a militia or militant group.

When did we start talking about gangs? I though you were comparing young school/other shooters to young kids in militas and militat groups.

[Kaos]

Do you think Western democracies don't have gang violence? The reasons for joining a gang are the same as the reasons for joining a militia or militant group.

I think some of the reasons might overlap, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that all the reasons are the same. People might join gangs because they feel isolated, unsafe and want to be around people who think the same way they do.

Sure those are all reasons for joining a militia group, but that also involves wanting to kill an invading force and perhaps installing a new government. Don't know how many gangs are into that.

[Senlui]

There was in our schools girls wc a text written that said that there was going to be a massacre on 15.1.2008. Some younger students were freaked out. It was told to the police and there will be a police officer in our school on that day. Hope it was just some sick joke.