Fireworks

[Oddvin]

Why are the politicians trying to ban bloody fireworks? It is annoying that as soon as some drunk moron ruins his eyes the politicians try to ban it. Is this a world trend or something?

I know that Germany has some form of limit on it, and here in Norway the state will ban rocket fireworks. Batteries standing on the ground will still be allowed though.

Why do the politicians try to ban everything? You can't force people to stop swimming because some people drown every year, so why should you be able to ban fireworks when less than 0,01% of a countries population hurt them self on it?

[Senlui]

Becouse "less than 0,01% of population" is still pretty much people and fireworks seems to me at least, quite pointless waste of money and health.

[OliverMarshall]

indeed, setting fire to a box of gunpowder in your back garden doesn't seem too clever to me. Leave it to the pros.

[KarstenViese]

Last year in Denmark a 2 year old boy got killed when hit in the stomach with a rocket...

...seems a good enough reason for me to ban.
It serves absolute no purpose for the general public.

[NicholasJohnson]

If said fireworks were another potentially dangerous yet non-essential object (such as a electric kitchen knife), would we then want to ban electric carving knives as well?

I can understand banning fireworks in dry areas that have a potential to burn, but if we ban fireworks just because they may "serve no use" or are "just too dangerous for the plebians," then why not just ban everything that is both potentially dangerous and inessential? If you blow your own hand off because you were dumb enough to hold onto a lit explosive, it's your own fault, not the manufacturer or the guy who sold it to you.


What kind of fireworks are we talking about here? Simple bottle rockets/smoke bombs or the massive electrically-fired ones used in outdoor shows?


You can't force people to stop swimming because some people drown every year, so why should you be able to ban fireworks when less than 0,01% of a countries population hurt them self on it?

Because, my friend, fireworks make a big scary "bang" that only secretly emasculated backwoods hicks would enjoy (well not like that :P ) :rolleyes: Swimming is "cultured" and more importantly, helps your heart.

[KarstenViese]

You have certain amount of control over your riding lawnmover (do some degree, unless you're a complete idiot).

You do not have the same amount of control over fireworks placed in a empty bottle by a 14 year old semi drunk kid.

Last night, here in denmark, a firework rocket hit and broke the window entering the bedroom of a sleeping 4 year old child setting his bed on fire.

I don't think this could happen with a lawnmover (without ruling out freak accidents)...

[NicholasJohnson]

But if said lawnmower or even automobile was operated by a 14 year old semi drunk kid, would it not be different?

*Sorry for the edits, didn't realize I was getting a reply so quickly :o

[KarstenViese]

...and if I'm not mistaken a "14 yeal old semi drunk kid in an automobile or riding lawnmover" is already banned :-)

[Blame Canada]

This is why fireworks should be banned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lDRsm4SEtw&feature=related

My half cousin blew off one hand and an eye a few years ago. It was his own fault, but quite often the people getting hurt are not those responsible.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Well i stopped getting fireworks in NZ in the late 90's,last big one i had was when sky rockets where still around and had old crackers still in 1997 i think.Crackers and tom thumbs where banned earlier,forget the year exactly,early 90s? or so.

And think used the last rockets up in 1999 possibly,so that would have been the last,shure had no crackers left then.But had they still been around i would still be buying and using them,but dont miss it too much and dont waster the money.But now they are not around(crackers,sky rockets etc...) i did not bother with what was left and just stay inside and watch tv and hear all the noise.Like they have flower posts and roman candles etc...,but soon they may ban it all too and only have displays on.

[Appleskates]

[QUOTE=Oddvin;90131]Why do the politicians try to ban everything?[QUOTE]

Because politicians are evil.

As for fireworks, I could see limitations on them, but not bannination.

[2ltben]

Personal fireworks should absolutely be banned. There simply is no reason that explosives should be given to people who don't know how to properly or responsibly use it.

Bans of fireworks usually do not apply to professional pyrotechnicians, simply because they don't use the cheap and quite often unnecessarily dangerous materials sold to the general public. And they're also regulated by the government in the form of permits and licenses.

[The Last Unknown Soldier]

You've got to be kidding me, more people are killed by WINE CORKS than by fireworks, fireworks are dangerous only in the hands of somebody from Jackass, it's sad to see what the world has come too, first political correctness, now this

[Flanker15]

They banned public fire work sales here in Oz a while back (too many fires or something). You can still get them from Chinatown and I don't see anyone trying to stop it. In NZ you can get all sorts of fire works from you local Warehouse store but not any big ones.
Funny enough the other year they had to ban sparklers to an extent because some genius found out you could scrape lots of the stuff on them together in a sealed container and set it off like a bomb. Then all the kids were blowing their fingers off!

[2ltben]

Its ignition fuel, you can scrape anything that lights on fire into a compact space and make a bomb. You gain do it with grain dust ffs.

People who know what they're doing don't buy roadside fireworks. If they're professionals, they're licensed pyrotechnicians, and even if they're not, amateurs who are responsible enough to handle blackpowder know how to make fireworks themselves.

[Bunglo]

I live about 10 minutes away from "boom city" which is located on an Indian reservation and since the Indians live in their own, separate democracy (for the most part) from the rest of the US, it's perfectly legal for them to sell all of the fireworks that are banned to the rest of the US. It's also perfectly legal for a person like my self to go to "boom city" (it's just an open gravel lot with tents set up by drunk Indians) and purchase the fireworks there. It's not, however, legal for me to set them off any where outside of the reservation. That being said, if I ever get fireworks (which is hardly ever), it's usually a bunch of firecrackers (which are illegal) and I strap a lot of them to an old toy or something and light them off. If the toy is made of plastic (which most are), it'll usually light on fire a bit but it's perfectly contained if it's lit on a cement road. On to the issue at hand though, the ONLY purpose fireworks serve (and don't think there isn't one) is entertainment. Some prefer to go to an ocean side park and watch professionals light off big, pretty ones. Others like to make a bunch of noise in front of their house. In either case, I don't think they should be banned, I think that's a bit extreme. If you're caught lighting fireworks that are banned and a police officer sees you, you get a pretty big fine for it (not sure if you can go to jail) where I live. I think that's good enough to lower the already slim chance of something happening to you when it comes to fireworks. You just can't decide to ban something because some morons use a product improperly, that's usually when something goes horribly wrong. That being said, even if you do follow the directions, things can always happen. In any case, you're always going to have problems with a product, both unexpectedly and with idiots. Danger is every where in the world, some of it is voidable, but when it comes to something like fireworks that can be bought illegally just by going to the nearest Indian reservation, it's not going to stop those idiots who use them incorrectly.

[2ltben]

That's just the point, its entertainment but its not harmless fun. Pretty damn far from harmless, I should say. Its blackpowder.

[Bunglo]

That's just the point, its entertainment but its not harmless fun. Pretty damn far from harmless, I should say. Its blackpowder.

If you take the proper precautions, it can be harmless and safe. Like I said, there's ALWAYS going to be idiots who use fireworks and ruin them for those around them. My dad and I go up to the mountains and shoot his 30.06 and .22 at targets we bring up (jugs of water, cans etc...) for fun. Could a bullet hit a rock and ricochet back at us? It's possible, but we take the necessary precautions before hand to lessen the chance. Now, if there were a couple of drunk rednecks going up to the mountains to shoot their guns, the end result would probably differ. All I'm trying to say is no matter how many blocks you try and put up to prevent the usage of fireworks, the ones who will cause the most damage will find away to get some.

[2ltben]

But do the people selling them in their large yellow tents care? Christ, I've seen fireworks sold to pre-teens that would blow their arm off with powder to spare. Are you saying that a 10 year old is going to take the necessary precautions? That he would think things through? Or is he just going to go blow something up and to hell with the consequences, which he probably doesn't even consider.

You mentioned firearms as an example. Unlike fireworks, they don't sell those to minors. Or people with a history of violence.

[Oddvin]

But then again, statistic is in:

6 people out of a population of 4,8 million people were wounded by fireworks on New Years Eve. 5 of those 6 were under the influence of alcohol at the time.

Are those 6 persons good enough reason to ban fireworks?

[Bunglo]

But do the people selling them in their large yellow tents care? Christ, I've seen fireworks sold to pre-teens that would blow their arm off with powder to spare. Are you saying that a 10 year old is going to take the necessary precautions? That he would think things through? Or is he just going to go blow something up and to hell with the consequences, which he probably doesn't even consider.

You mentioned firearms as an example. Unlike fireworks, they don't sell those to minors. Or people with a history of violence.

You're right, firearms can't be sold to minors but do you think the gang leaders, drug smugglers, or any other crimal such as these care? No, that's why you have all of these punk ass kids in gangs running around with ak47's and hand guns. And the Indians are actually set up in little wooden stands, not "large yellow tents":p Like I said, if the United States banned fireworks, you can still go down to an Indian reservation that sells them and buy them and light them. Wow, great job! You just banned fireworks, yet people are still buying and using them...

[2ltben]

You're right, firearms can't be sold to minors but do you think the gang leaders, drug smugglers, or any other crimal such as these care? No, that's why you have all of these punk ass kids in gangs running around with ak47's and hand guns. And the Indians are actually set up in little wooden stands, not "large yellow tents":p Like I said, if the United States banned fireworks, you can still go down to an Indian reservation that sells them and buy them and light them. Wow, great job! You just banned fireworks, yet people are still buying and using them...
Around here we get large yellow and red striped circus tents everywhere around July 4.

And on your first note, is that a reason to make it easier for such people to acquire weapons? Do you think crime would drop if police officers stopped arresting these people when they find firearms on them? No its not perfect, but its something. We don't need militias and we don't need the Second Amendment, we have a professional police force now, something the 18th century didn't have.

Oh, and Native American reservations are still on Federal land and are still answerable to the United States government. Reservations are a form of local self-government, not Federal. They can't choose to not obey Federal law, just as a state can't. I can recall a certain war fought over this matter. Actually, two.

[[FFTF]Eurofighter]

Here in Holland we have what we think is a very strickt law about fireworks but now i read this it changed my mind xD!
The law here is kinda like this: ''Everything that makes a bang that is too loud is banned.''
It is to take care of ear damage and damage to windows and stuff. Most other things are pretty much legal except for huge sizes. We've had massive campaigns about how to lit fireworks in a safe way and they work pretty well.
The only problem we have is many people go to belgium to get illegal fireworks cause in belgium everything is legal.
Owh and maybe the most important thing which I've almost forgotten because it's normal here is that fireworks are only allowed on the day of and during newyears evening. It solves a lot of problems :) Only mayhem at one day of the year xD

[Mastershake16]

You do not have the same amount of control over fireworks placed in a empty bottle by a 14 year old semi drunk kid.

Lol

In America we think fireworks are fun, in New Hampshire there 100% Legal and you can buy, so people from new england come here to buy them.

[Bunglo]

Around here we get large yellow and red striped circus tents everywhere around July 4.

And on your first note, is that a reason to make it easier for such people to acquire weapons? Do you think crime would drop if police officers stopped arresting these people when they find firearms on them? No its not perfect, but its something. We don't need militias and we don't need the Second Amendment, we have a professional police force now, something the 18th century didn't have.

Oh, and Native American reservations are still on Federal land and are still answerable to the United States government. Reservations are a form of local self-government, not Federal. They can't choose to not obey Federal law, just as a state can't. I can recall a certain war fought over this matter. Actually, two.

I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree with you to a certain extent. But banning all fireworks is ridiculous and if you're really that serious about getting rid of them you'd need a cop on every street in America and that's just not possible. All banning fireworks does is make it an inconvenience to try and get them. Could that lower the possible chance of something going wrong, of course. Is it a big enough number though? I seriously doubt it. Those who really want them will get them. You're casual 4th of July celebrator may get a few fireworks like sparklers, bees, and maybe a few other little fireworks. I think what they have in place now is working just fine for my state. On the 4th you see your common mortar fireworks burst in the air, kids with sparklers and other little things. There are always the BIG explosions you here though a few times during the day and I think those are the biggest danger and those are banned from use yet they still are being set off. Banning the bigger, dangerous fireworks? Sure, go ahead, those along with firecrackers are already illegal in Washington state. Ban all fireworks including sparklers? Ughhh, that's just stupid...

And I'm pretty sure the Native American's could essentially separate from the rest of the US if they really wanted to but that would mean they loose everything (I'm not expert on the subject though, so I'm probably wrong)... including their beloved casinos (there's one on the same reservation that sells all of the fireworks where I live lol.)

[2ltben]

I spent 16 July 4ths in Massachusetts, where there was a ban, and enjoyed the night by a police scanner listening to their snide comments about noise complaints. They don't enforce the ban on the 4th and don't care who hears about it. And I'm not suggesting banning the ingredients, which, while more dangerous, requires knowledge of pyrotechnics, and therefore basic safety, to make functional.

I'm not even suggesting a ban. Charge licenses for fireworks use, charge a bit more around the 4th of July, and give the local governments an additional source of income. At that, you can issue licenses after the applicant takes a short quiz on basic fireworks safety. People will break it, sure, but many won't, and, while not a perfect solution, it will save some lives and limbs.

And sparklers are not fireworks. That's going from being responsible to being ridiculous. Yeah, you can make a bomb out of them, but what can't you make a bomb out of? I know how to make a smoke bomb out of ping-pong balls and aluminum foil ffs, and the aluminum foil is just there to make it look pretty.

[Oddvin]

People will break it, sure, but many won't, and, while not a perfect solution, it will save some lives and limbs.

Lives are not lost to fireworks! If they are then i need a source or a link. We had some people that bought a shitload of fireworks and started mixing shit in their basement. When that whole thing went up in flames in their basement, the house moved on the foundation, and yet. No one was killed. There was 6 people in that basement, one guy lost his leg, but noe one died. Supposedly the explosion was as powerful as a 100 kg bomb. NO ONE died!

[Bunglo]

I spent 16 July 4ths in Massachusetts, where there was a ban, and enjoyed the night by a police scanner listening to their snide comments about noise complaints. They don't enforce the ban on the 4th and don't care who hears about it. And I'm not suggesting banning the ingredients, which, while more dangerous, requires knowledge of pyrotechnics, and therefore basic safety, to make functional.

I'm not even suggesting a ban. Charge licenses for fireworks use, charge a bit more around the 4th of July, and give the local governments an additional source of income. At that, you can issue licenses after the applicant takes a short quiz on basic fireworks safety. People will break it, sure, but many won't, and, while not a perfect solution, it will save some lives and limbs.

And sparklers are not fireworks. That's going from being responsible to being ridiculous. Yeah, you can make a bomb out of them, but what can't you make a bomb out of? I know how to make a smoke bomb out of ping-pong balls and aluminum foil ffs, and the aluminum foil is just there to make it look pretty.

... You're completely contradicting your self now. In your very first post you say "Personal fireworks should absolutely be banned..." Now you say "I'm not even suggesting a ban." And you make it sound like a few dozen people die or get seriously injured when some one uses fireworks. I just think you're making too big a deal of this. Oh, and sparklers are fireworks.

[DavidUpton]

Surprisingly, considering how much the British government tries to nanny us, fireworks haven't been banned here yet, but it's only a matter of time.

One mate of mine was telling me how he used to play 'firework roulette'; light a rocket, throw it in the air and watch.

[scottdog]

We'll now im pritty off fireworks, some guy in the city being an idiot nearly blew his hand off last night, had to get taken to hospital, and not a nice site for a crowd to see either.
My mum also worked with someone whose son died using fireworks, he lit the rocket, it didn't go off, leaned directly over it to see why it didn't go off... and lost half his head. He died a few days later in hospital. It seems like a pritty reasonable accident.

[Bunglo]

My mum also worked with someone whose son died using fireworks, he lit the rocket, it didn't go off, leaned directly over it to see why it didn't go off... and lost half his head. He died a few days later in hospital. It seems like a pritty reasonable accident.

... I don't want to sound like a heartless asshole but why in the world would some one lean directly over to see why it didn't go off... that's the last thing you want to do.

[Oddvin]

... I don't want to sound like a heartless asshole but why in the world would some one lean directly over to see why it didn't go off... that's the last thing you want to do.

He was MORE than likely very drunk! If not i have no remorse for him! If he is as stupid and does that, id actually say that Social Darwinism is right. Stupidity fails!

[Fallschirmjäger]

What type of rocket was that scottdog to do that?,a normal size or one with added homemade things.And on the blew half his head off, it went into the skin and then blew it to pieces etc...

[2ltben]

... You're completely contradicting your self now. In your very first post you say "Personal fireworks should absolutely be banned..." Now you say "I'm not even suggesting a ban." And you make it sound like a few dozen people die or get seriously injured when some one uses fireworks. I just think you're making too big a deal of this. Oh, and sparklers are fireworks.
I jumped the gun in response to the question, which was putting forward a ban. After considering it, regulation usually works better. Regulation also has an incredibly long track history of proving that Social Darwinism is just fucking ridiculous.

[[FFTF]Eurofighter]

Regulation also has an incredibly long track history of proving that Social Darwinism is just fucking ridiculous.

Eh? survival of the fittest cracker? :confused:

[2ltben]

Eurofighter;90805']Eh? survival of the fittest cracker? :confused:
I've written at length on the topic, and even staked 1/4 of my Gilded Age History grade on it. America circa 1870-1900 went through a nasty Social Darwinism streak, culminating in America becoming a full-blown Imperialist nation with the miserably Pyrrhic victory in repressing the Filipino independence movement. So much so that quite a number of Americans from every last aspect of society, from William Jennings Bryan to Andrew Carnegie to Mark Twain, thought that America had betrayed its founding principles.

The Progressive era was never lead by a movement, rather the cumulative effect of numerous reform movements to just about every aspect of American society, their chief weapon in Regulation. It was not a movement, it was a response to the radical change the previous era of America had brought, change so radical that the America of 1864 was completely unrecognizable in comparison to the America of 1904. Those we consider Progressives had seen that America had dropped the ball when it came to responding to that change, trying to maintain a social status quo in entirely different circumstances. This lead to the corrupt sharecropping system, Jim Crowe laws, the tyranny of the railroad, corruption of every sort, the utter refusal of the courts to act against business, and all of the other almost innumerable evils of the era.

I've written three papers on the topic since September. And another on a similar topic. The chief argument of Reform Darwinism is that, while survival of the fittest may hold true in nature, the purpose of civilization, among other things, is the defense of the weak, not their institutionalized condemnation. Hence Social Darwinist policies like Laissez Faire Capitalism corrupt the very foundation of civilization itself, and what has a faulty foundation will eventually crumble and fall.

[Oddvin]

The chief argument of Reform Darwinism is that, while survival of the fittest may hold true in nature, the purpose of civilization, among other things, is the defense of the weak, not their institutionalized condemnation.

I do disagree, while it may be your way of seeing things, defending the weak will after generations lead to a de-evolution. My ultimate example of social Darwinism in a working society, would be ancient city-state of Sparta. Any deformed child would be killed. IT lead to a society which was more powerful than any other. Although their politics were: Nationalist-communist-Social Darwinism. They were the only greek city state to take other greeks as slaves. And they were the only greek city state were men and woman were equal.
Social Capitalism opens for new ways of exploiting everyone and their grandmother.

[2ltben]

I do disagree, while it may be your way of seeing things, defending the weak will after generations lead to a de-evolution.
Then you look them in the eyes and pull the trigger. I hope you enjoy no longer being human. Also, this is not my way of seeing things, I was paraphrasing Lester Frank Ward, chief opponent of William Graham Sumner, the leading mind of American Social Darwinism. I would have quoted him, but the article I paraphrased is in my dorm. My way of seeing things is why I left that "among other things" in there.


My ultimate example of social Darwinism in a working society, would be ancient city-state of Sparta.
Then I must come to the conclusion that your knowledge of Sparta is based on The History Channel and movies.


Any deformed child would be killed.
A practice common to Antiquity. Romans did the same thing, and even codified it into law in the Twelve Tables. You also mention that the Spartans had a sub-class they used for slave labor, ritual sacrifice, and quite often for target practice. Treated in a manner similar to how Russia treated its serfs. We had those once, as I recall.


IT lead to a society which was more powerful than any other.
It was powerful because it used common sense on the battlefield and wise diplomatic manuvering. Spartans fought the weakest enemies they faced and left their allies to face the better opponents. Sparta did not seek to establish itself abroad or become an empire. Not everyone in Sparta was a warrior, only the few who had citizenship and could pay for the expenses were permitted to undergo the rigorous training that earned Sparta its reputation. The others received the training of a common man-at-arms.


Although their politics were: Nationalist-communist-Social Darwinism.
You couldn't be more wrong. Sparta was a monarchy and calling it by any other name is just wrong. And I also think you're ignorant as to what a Communist or Nationalist is. There were no nation-states in Hellenic Greece because the political entity was the city-state, something you say in this very post. And I think you should learn the very clear difference between Soviet Communism from Marxism or Trotskyism. At best, Sparta was similar to the Holy Roman Empire during the 13th century.


They were the only greek city state to take other greeks as slaves. And they were the only greek city state were men and woman were equal.
Social Capitalism opens for new ways of exploiting everyone and their grandmother.
I hope you realize that you clearly, intentionally, and willfully endorsed genocide, slavery, eugenics, infanticide, imperialism, colonialism, and racial superiority. You share these attributes with such great men as Albert Beveridge and Adolf Hitler. However, I do not state this to accuse you, merely to speak the truth. You have a right to state your beliefs as you see fit and I will not infringe upon it. I have only one quote to state, one which I hope you will take to heart: "Mistah Kurtz, he dead."

[OliverMarshall]

This seems a tad off topic...

[Oddvin]

Lets see, i do not endorse the followings stated in above post: genocide, slavery, infanticide, imperialism, colonialism nor racial superiority.

But eugenics, quite frankly i don't see the problem with it. It benefits the coming generations. Notice that im against racial superiority, so eugenics for me would be too root out people with hereditary diseases. AKa. Downs syndrome for example.


Not everyone in Sparta was a warrior, only the few who had citizenship and could pay for the expenses were permitted to undergo the rigorous training that earned Sparta its reputation.
What do you lay in the word Spartan then? For me a Spartan is a Spartan citizen, not a slave of the Spartans. Therefore, Spartans were great warriors.

[DavidUpton]

This seems a tad off topic...

I couldn't agree more. This might be the politics thread, but you are all going about as far off topic as you can get. Take this debate into another thread, instead of derailing and obscuring this one.

And now a chance for me to use one of these new smilies. :policeman:

[2ltben]

Lets see, i do not endorse the followings stated in above post: genocide, slavery, infanticide, imperialism, colonialism nor racial superiority.
You have a major premise, where's the rest of your syllogism? Your opinion is not always truth. If this is all the argument you wish to counterpoint with, then I must conclude that your argument must not be very convincing. Or, perhaps, you see that my argument is correct.

[css2d]

So back on topic, in Germany we put fire crackers like everything else into nice categories. In this case by the amount of explosive/sparkle stuff there is in the fireworks, i don't write those down, as i don't know the english names for the chemicals.

I. Small Firework = small kids stuff, can be sold all year round.:kid:

!!. New Years eve fire works = all those rockets, firecrackers etc., they can only be sold from Dezember 28th to 31th by persons over 18.

http://www.pyro-partner.de/feuerwerk/fwrk_gesetze.html#Klasseneinteilung
(german)

For something with more bang you need a license or be in the army