Wow, just wow

[CBowling]

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080224/NEWS01/80224002/1006

This was a boy that went to my school. I met him a few times, quite a nice guy. It is a shame he is gone now.


Also, huge rumors that tomorrow there will be a school shooting. Gang fight between the friends of the deceased and the friends of the shooter. Even friends I know that have police officers for parents are being forced to stay home.

I hope it is all rumors, but so far I have talked to 20 people who have permission to stay home, and one of them has a parent that works at the school.

Update: Rumor is believable enough that a large portion of our police department will be at our school tomorrow. Also, other schools in the area are going to be on lock down.

[Timblesink]

That's insane. Why are people so stupid? The shooters, I mean.

[CBowling]

I have no idea. It is a sad thing when humanity degrades to the point of petty retaliations that only cause more and more death.

I can only hope this is a rumor, not only for those that may be going to school tomorrow (If it is indeeds till open), but so more lives will not be wrecked.

[Dutchlike]

I do not have any words for this.

[sid]

This is one focked up world.

[Bunglo]

Yep, all over words. Some little jack ass pulls out a gun and start shooting because he's a little baby.

[|:XAS:| Bravo]

Fubar

[icecoldbeerer]

Dude sucks for his grandma from that article...if you look on the frontpage there is an article that says your school was 40-50% empty today. On the day of our schools threat last year everyone was there and there was one (1) more cop there! Safe!

It was perfect, everyone in the gym locked in for the shooter. Two cops. But, thankfully, nothing happened.

[Byron]

fubar indeed. I am so glad I am out of high school, can be pretty dangerous...dont get me wrong college can too. But who in their fucking mind would open fire in a military school where everyone has a firearm...

[Lord Justin]

Last year in my school there was a Bomb Threat fad. One day in second semester some kids were saying something about a bomb and that got interpreted as a bomb threat, so the whole school was sent out to stand on the grounds for a few periods (I wasn't there that day though). Then a while later someone apparently left a note in a bathroom saying they were going to blow up the school. And we're outside again. Happened another once or twice after that.

No guns threats at our school because I live in a suburb that hasn't hosted a violent crime in 1800 years and because we have one or two cops roaming the halls at all times.

Too bad about that guy, Bowling. Some people are so fuckin stupid. I hope your school doesn't see any more violence : \

[scottdog]

Dam, its quite scary that so many of your schools have these kind of problems.

My school has a bad name, and the only time cops are ever there is when someones caught smoking weed lol.
Don't want to get to into politics, but something really needs to be done in the US.

[CBowling]

Alot of the parents are considering keeping students home again.

They believe since the news spread the rumor and got alot of cops to the school, the "Gangs" may just wait another day.

Who knows, perhaps they should just move our spring break up to this week, so it can all die down?

[Crazythumbs]

Back in 11th grade we had quite a few bomb threats (4-5), and for some reason they happened mostly on Wednesdays. Which popularly became "bomb threat Wednesdays"
It got to the point were no one cared anymore. I remember a kid coming back from the bathroom in chemistry class "yeaaa... there's a bomb threat written on the wall." But nothing became of it and we never got to miss class.


Don't want to get to into politics, but something really needs to be done in the US.
Thats like saying "I'm not a racist, but I hate black people"

[Bunglo]

Dam, its quite scary that so many of your schools have these kind of problems.
Don't want to get to into politics, but something really needs to be done in the US.

The media blows it waaay out of proportion. See, they have their themes of the day or week or month. One day they mention a fatal car accident and the next 4 stories will involve a car accident. School shootings seems to be their "multiple month" theme. And every school has this problem but the majority of the time it doesn't escalate to a shooting. As you can see, the media would like you to think other wise.

I love your last comment, try living here before you say something like that...

[Lord Justin]

The media blows it waaay out of proportion. See, they have their themes of the day or week or month. One day they mention a fatal car accident and the next 4 stories will involve a car accident. School shootings seems to be their "multiple month" theme. And every school has this problem but the majority of the time it doesn't escalate to a shooting. As you can see, the media would like you to think other wise.

I love your last comment, try living here before you say something like that...

First of all, don't start blaming the media for everything. Yes, the vast majority of schools have not had shootings. But it is an undeniable fact that school shootings are becoming more common. Ten years ago it was pretty much unheard of. Columbine changed that, and nowadays everybody wants to be the next Eric Harris.

Also, I think scottdog has a good point. No, crazythumbs, it's not like saying that. Stating that "something should be done in the US" is not political. Just because it refers to a certain nation makes it political? I don't think so. And I don't think anybody needs to live in the US in order to know that we have problems, particularly with violent crimes.

But perhaps this thread should be moved to the political forum? It probably should've been originally, as politics were bound to come out of it.

[scottdog]

The media blows it waaay out of proportion. See, they have their themes of the day or week or month. One day they mention a fatal car accident and the next 4 stories will involve a car accident.

Acctually no, I'm going by what you guys say, and one of your comments not here, but in the chatbox, you said that your glad to be out of high school because it dangerous. If people seriously have to worrie about there safety when going to school, thats just not a productive environment. We are both from Western world countries, what you americans tell me is unheard of in my country.


School shootings

I'm not talking about school shooting, I'm talking about people having to fear for there safety at school.


I love your last comment, try living here before you say something like that...

Why would i want to live there after all this I hear from you guys, If you guys are going to post this stuff and talk about, don't jump me, by saying I'm getting all this from the media.


Thats like saying "I'm not a racist, but I hate black people"

No it isn't because, well first, I used the word "to", so that can imply im just touching the surface. Second, I think that Acknowledging a problem that your country has that my country doesn't isnt getting into politics. Third: bad compraison.

Don't make me get into what a stated i didn't want to do.

[Combine]

All this violence just sickens me... just this year at my school three students (no one that I knew) were killed in separate incidents.

From what I hear I just might want to join my cousin in Australia...

[Kaos]

Acctually no, I'm going by what you guys say, and one of your comments not here, but in the chatbox, you said that your glad to be out of high school because it dangerous. If people seriously have to worrie about there safety when going to school, thats just not a productive environment. We are both from Western world countries, what you americans tell me is unheard of in my country.



I'm not talking about school shooting, I'm talking about people having to fear for there safety at school.



Why would i want to live there after all this I hear from you guys, If you guys are going to post this stuff and talk about, don't jump me, by saying I'm getting all this from the media.



No it isn't because, well first, I used the word "to", so that can imply im just touching the surface. Second, I think that Acknowledging a problem that your country has that my country doesn't isnt getting into politics. Third: bad compraison.

Don't make me get into what a stated i didn't want to do.

I'm going to take Scottdog's side in this.

I went to America on exchange for 6 months (Texas to be precise). I was shocked at the fact that the schools their employ their own security force and often have metal detectors are entrances. Coming from Australia I thought this was insane. Schools are supposed to be places kids can feel safe without having to worry about protection...

My experience with Aussie schools is the same, I went to 5 different ones in different towns during my school career and the only time police came on campus was when there was one break and enter, one act of graffiti and one time someone got caught with dope.

Australia has only ever had one school shooting and that was at Monash Univeristy in 2002, killing two people.

I just counted some off Google but I've already counted 45 in the USA since 1966. Including the infamous Columbine and Virginia Tech massacres.

It's a fair statement to make that Australian schools are generally safer, and when Australian's (Or anyone else not from America) is confronted with that number they are likely to say "Wow I would not want to live there".

[Dutchlike]

There has been 1 violent act at our school, it was *just* a fist fight between 2 groups though.
I did hear about another school that someone was stabbed to death, but that's like all i know about violence in school in the Netherlands.

[Bunglo]

The only thing that was really violent that happened to the HS I went to was some kid got stabbed once in the arm. But the kid with the knife got jumped after that by bunch of kids. That was a few years before I started HS. During the four years I was at HS, nothing happened like that. It just depends on the kid(s) and the area they grow up in. It's just blown out of proportion, that's why I said my previous comment, Scott.

None of the schools I ever went to had more than one police officer and they also have never had a metal detector. I mean what is different from the US and any where else that would "provoke" such acts? There's just a shit load of stupid, crazy people here and I'm not really sure why.

[Bunglo]

It's a fair statement to make that Australian schools are generally safer...

And how is that? Do you guys have a butt load of security/ police officers there and is every kid checked for any thing they could use as a weapon before entering the school and before they go into class? It seems the security in schools other than the US would be much easier to bring a gun in if a kid wanted to. It's just kids in other countries don't seem to see the need (thank God) to escalate an argument to such an extreme level. Stupid kids + guns = horrible situation. That's the only real reason I can see why this happens so much...

[Althalus28]

And how is that? Do you guys have a butt load of security/ police officers there and is every kid checked for any thing they could use as a weapon before entering the school and before they go into class? It seems the security in schools other than the US would be much easier to bring a gun in if a kid wanted to. It's just kids in other countries don't seem to see the need (thank God) to escalate an argument to such an extreme level. Stupid kids + guns = horrible situation. That's the only real reason I can see why this happens so much...


I dont mean to sound angry... but maybe you should looka bit harder. Australian schools dont need a buttload of security or anything like that because unlike the USA firearms arnt readily avaible for everyone whoes just says.."hey i want a gun" we dont need the security because what kind of kid in australia can just pick out his dads set of 40 guns? also if u dont have a gun..you cant get so angry to say i"m going to blow your brains out" because you dont have a gun to back it up....is america that insecure that everyone needs a gun to defend themsevles??? cant they just ban all guns??

wouldnt that solve the senseless waste of life??

[Saden]

I dont mean to sound angry... but maybe you should looka bit harder. Australian schools dont need a buttload of security or anything like that because unlike the USA firearms arnt readily avaible for everyone whoes just says.."hey i want a gun" we dont need the security because what kind of kid in australia can just pick out his dads set of 40 guns? also if u dont have a gun..you cant get so angry to say i"m going to blow your brains out" because you dont have a gun to back it up....is america that insecure that everyone needs a gun to defend themsevles??? cant they just ban all guns??

wouldnt that solve the senseless waste of life??

Are you high? Or a soccer mom? Or both?

[Althalus28]

im none of them im just saying that americans and theyre bloody gun rules set me on edge.. i dont mind guns my friend is the second best shooter in victoria for his age. im just saying guns shouldnt be given to ppl whos only ask is self defence, im just stating my opinion..no offence intended

[Randleman]

I'm going to take Scottdog's side in this.

I went to America on exchange for 6 months (Texas to be precise)

Im not saying this is the reason, but the area/city you were going to the schools were different areas than in Australia.

[Bunglo]

Rivet, your biased views are making my side ache, I can't stop laughing!!! Ignorance really IS everywhere (though Rivet's comments go beyond ignorance...)

[scottdog]

Rivet, your biased views are making my side ache, I can't stop laughing!!! Ignorance really IS everywhere (though Rivet's comments go beyond ignorance...)

We'll the thing is, there are already to many guns in america to ban them, they have already made the fatal mistake of making them widely availible.

Also the issue with guns is it's alot less personal to kill someone, if you have to go stab someone to death, your going to have them dying in your arms, and even the most hated of enemies, human instinct would find that to hard to do.
Its alot harder to do that, then say shoot a gun from 10 meters and run.

You can't really call him ignorant because we are pritty much from two different societies, and we are both ignorent of each other society in a way.

[icecoldbeerer]

Here in Texas, we assume all schools have cops and detectors.

And so did I until I read this thread.

[Borus]

Uhh, I go to school in Texas and I have yet to walk through a school with metal detectors. I think that is just the generalization that most people think now, but to be precise, I have been to plenty of other schools and not seen one metal detector in use.

[Bunglo]

You can't really call him ignorant because we are pritty much from two different societies, and we are both ignorant of each other society in a way.

You just called both of us ignorant right after telling me I can't call him ignorant... ok... That doesn't make any since at all. Here's the definition of ignorant in case you forgot:


Ignorance is the condition of being uninformed or uneducated, lacking knowledge or information.

Of course we're going to be ignorant on subjects that pertain to other societies or places we don't live at or have not been to. That's why I found his comment so funny. He criticizes Americans and their love for guns yet he lives in Australia and should have no say in what Americans, as a whole or individually, like or dislike. Why? Because he has no personal conception of it because he has yet to experience it.

[Saden]

Everyone should have the right to self defense, that is also why I support concealed carry, too bad it's not legal here in Canada. Guns are also fun, venting out a whole month's anger in two hours is always fun. That's another dumb thing, targeting people who legally own their firearms, 90% of the time, the people that own the licensed firearm aren't out to use it in a crime, and if you outlaw guns, the crime wont decrease by very much, if anything at all. Criminals get their guns illegally, smuggle em' in, or whatever it takes. Sorry for all that, I think we should move this to political if you want to continue this debate.

[scottdog]

You just called both of us ignorant right after telling me I can't call him ignorant... ok... That doesn't make any since at all. Here's the definition of ignorant in case you forgot:


My point is there is no point in labelling people Ignorant, if you don't understand our state of mind and we don't understand yours, its not going anywhere. I like to call it difference of opinion, and we are not telling you how to live we are suggesting it. If you want to label people who dislike the way your country works as ignorants, thats just not logical.


Of course we're going to be ignorant on subjects that pertain to other societies or places we don't live at or have not been to. That's why I found his comment so funny. He criticizes Americans and their love for guns yet he lives in Australia and should have no say in what Americans, as a whole or individually, like or dislike. Why? Because he has no personal conception of it because he has yet to experience it.

We'll have you experienced Australia?

Well look, I just don't see the logic in having a weapon that can penetrate flesh and bone, and that can be used at up to 100 meters as a weapon of self defence. (refering to handgun)
I just cannot gather the concept you americans have... guns are designed to caused as much damage as they can on impact, it's not a nice and clean wound either. Why, when there are so many less leathal ways of self defence do you see the need to use a gun? Take pepper spray for one; has a large radius of effect and is very good at neutralising, pritty much will nearly put everyone on the ground.
Please explain to me why the right of self defence has to or needs to be a gun?

[Bunglo]

By definition, he is ignorant on the subject he spoke of (all Americans love guns, having 40 of them etc...) It has nothing to do with if he likes or dislikes the way America is ran because his comments were not based on facts, just biased views.

I have not experienced Australia and why would that even matter since we're not talking about Australia?

I see you using the "you Americans" statement as well. I just said some one who does not live here shouldn't really state something like that because you have no personal experience to base it on. I'm all for moving a portion of this thread to the political part of the forums if it needs to be but all I'm trying to say is, don't act as if your views are facts ;)

[Saden]

Please explain to me why the right of self defence has to or needs to be a gun?

Because when the other guy has a gun, I'd like the have the OPTION or the CHOICE of being able to defend myself or anyone else with a firearm. If you would really want to stop crime, why don't we destroy every single firearm on the planet?

[Kaos]

Because when the other guy has a gun, I'd like the have the OPTION or the CHOICE of being able to defend myself or anyone else with a firearm. If you would really want to stop crime, why don't we destroy every single firearm on the planet?

Stupidest argument in the world. Some people go on rampages with tanks, that means tanks should be a legal form of self defence? Destroying firearms would not stop crime, but it would definitely decrease the amount of gun crime committed, which HAS been shown to happen - most recently in Australia after the gun buy back scheme initiated by the Federal Government.

Look, there are opinions and their are facts. It is ridiculous to stereotype especially if you haven't experienced a culture first-hand. I have experienced both cultures and stated my opinions about which I found the safer and which environment I would prefer to live and learn in. I also provided the facts about the number of school shootings in the USA vs. Australia. My opinions and those facts have led me to judge that Australia is a much safer place regarding gun-crime in general, and in schools, than the USA.

[Saden]

Australia has 21 million people, the United States has 300 million. Only a very small percentage of people are complete fuck ups that want to go around killing people, but since the population of the US is much larger than Australia, there are more criminals, looneys whatever in countries of larger population, and these people would still have access to these firearms even if they were outlawed in the country, if they are getting them illegally now, then they would still be able to get them the same way, regardless if there are guns or not in their country.

[PhantomZero]

Yes Big Brother, in Australia there has never been a shooting at a school. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting)


Nobody in Australia has ever even been suspected of planning a school shooting. (http://www.shoutmouth.com/index.php/news/Drowning_Pool_Song_Involved_in_Australian_School_S hooting_Plot)


The glorious government strategy of buying back people's guns (http://www.mcsm.org/buyback.html)is working at 300% efficiency. (http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/946486847.html)

We have always been at war with Eurasia.


Truestory: Nobody in American grade School gives a shit about school shootings. Sure there might be metal detectors and police officers at some schools, but I really don't think the students are fearing for their lives every day they go into class. They are probably more concered about how much a slut Jessica is and how many touchdowns Jack got at homecomming football game.

Over here in America, we have this thing called "The right to bare arms." Honestly, even if America did ban and outlaw all guns, there would still be shootings and such. I really don't think criminals give a shit about laws, but I admit, I may be wrong about this, they likely don't even give two shits. Hell even destroying all weapons on earth isn't going to stop an angsty I-hate-my-parents-myself-and-the-world teen from stabbing somebody or trying to choke somebody in the bathroom.

scottdog
Listen, you can bring the knife to the gunfight if you want to, i'm sure you will be fine.

And please, having to cut somebody and watch them die in your arms isn't any better than shooting them in the gut and watching them moan as they bleed out on the pavement. It is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages)not against (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval)human instinct to kill. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome)


I'm going to take Scottdog's side in this.

I went to America on exchange for 6 months (Texas to be precise). I was shocked at the fact that the schools their employ their own security force and often have metal detectors are entrances. Coming from Australia I thought this was insane. Schools are supposed to be places kids can feel safe without having to worry about protection...

My experience with Aussie schools is the same, I went to 5 different ones in different towns during my school career and the only time police came on campus was when there was one break and enter, one act of graffiti and one time someone got caught with dope.

Australia has only ever had one school shooting and that was at Monash Univeristy in 2002, killing two people.

I just counted some off Google but I've already counted 45 in the USA since 1966. Including the infamous Columbine and Virginia Tech massacres.

It's a fair statement to make that Australian schools are generally safer, and when Australian's (Or anyone else not from America) is confronted with that number they are likely to say "Wow I would not want to live there".

Okay let me bring some facts your way. Each state in the United States has had 2 or less school shootings, that seems to be on par with the rest of the world. Now, California is the outlier and has had about 7 school shootings. Now you might be asking yourself "Well how is California revelent?", well it's because California is widely known throughout the U.S. for it's strict policies on gun control. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Californi a)

My high school in Detroit, one of the cities with the highest amount of gun violence, did not have metal detectors and only had one police officer.

I'm done typing for now watch some bullshit. (http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/60509/detail/)

[Bunglo]

Stupidest argument in the world.

So you know a quicker way of stopping a criminal with a gun pointed at your head? If you were in a life or death situation, I think you'd change your opinion pretty quick.



Look, there are opinions and their are facts. It is ridiculous to stereotype especially if you haven't experienced a culture first-hand. I have experienced both cultures and stated my opinions about which I found the safer and which environment I would prefer to live and learn in. I also provided the facts about the number of school shootings in the USA vs. Australia. My opinions and those facts have led me to judge that Australia is a much safer place regarding gun-crime in general, and in schools, than the USA.

You lived in America for 6 months and went to one school... Can you make a better judgment for your self than others who haven't been to the US? Of course. But 6 months in a country and only going to one school is really nothing compared to spending the entire 18 years of your life in the US and moving so much that you go to around 7 different schools for more than a year each (my self.) I was born in California and moved to Washington State when I was around 7 or 8 years old. I can tell you that out of my entire life span, I never once thought about my safety at school.

In fact, during my senior year of High School, I was called into the security office and was "confronted" by the deputy with the strange question of "why would you threaten to bring a gun to school and shoot some one?" I of course had no idea what the fuck this guy was talking about so asked him who said that. He replied with some chicks name I had never even heard of and I said what period did she say I said this. Turns out I don't even have the same class has her for the period. So they call in the chick who accused me and it's some idiot girl from my fourth period class, who for some reason, associated my name with some idiot from her second period class. The douche bag officer offered me a f*cking candy bar because of the "mishap".

Even after that, all I could think about was how stupid the girl who accused me was and why in the hell didn't they just have her right there in the room to confirm I was the right person?!? I never though "Oh jeez, theres a crazy kid who's ganna bring a gun to school..."

You're free to form your own opinions based on information and your own experience but in no way is any school safer than the other. They all have the opportunity for something equally tragic to happen (and the event in this thread didn't even happen at school.)

[Bunglo]

First of all, don't start blaming the media for everything. Yes, the vast majority of schools have not had shootings. But it is an undeniable fact that school shootings are becoming more common. Ten years ago it was pretty much unheard of. Columbine changed that, and nowadays everybody wants to be the next Eric Harris.


I seemed to have missed this post of yours, Justin. Your last sentence, "nowadays everybody wants to be the next Eric Harris..." Kind of brings up my point. Do you think, just maybe, the media could have influenced other shootings? Think about it, every time some one shoots up a school, the media is all over it. Some messed up kid wants to get his "message" across (much like that Asian guy with his video tapes that caused the Virginia Tech shootings) and he knows that if he even tries to shoot some one at a school, it'll be on the five o' clock news that night and they will go back to that same story at least two more times within that same week.

I don't know if you listen to Nevermore but the beginning of the song "Final Product" is what I'm getting at here because it's true. Here are the lyrics I'm referring to:


The media loves the latest tragic suicide
They exploit it, then package it and profit from the people who die

I'm not saying the media its self causes shootings but it sure as hell influences them. Maybe that's why they try to blame video games all of the time???

[Kaos]

Yes Big Brother, in Australia there has never been a shooting at a school. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting)


Nobody in Australia has ever even been suspected of planning a school shooting. (http://www.shoutmouth.com/index.php/news/Drowning_Pool_Song_Involved_in_Australian_School_S hooting_Plot)


The glorious government strategy of buying back people's guns (http://www.mcsm.org/buyback.html)is working at 300% efficiency. (http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/946486847.html)

We have always been at war with Eurasia.


Truestory: Nobody in American grade School gives a shit about school shootings. Sure there might be metal detectors and police officers at some schools, but I really don't think the students are fearing for their lives every day they go into class. They are probably more concered about how much a slut Jessica is and how many touchdowns Jack got at homecomming football game.

Over here in America, we have this thing called "The right to bare arms." Honestly, even if America did ban and outlaw all guns, there would still be shootings and such. I really don't think criminals give a shit about laws, but I admit, I may be wrong about this, they likely don't even give two shits. Hell even destroying all weapons on earth isn't going to stop an angsty I-hate-my-parents-myself-and-the-world teen from stabbing somebody or trying to choke somebody in the bathroom.

scottdog
Listen, you can bring the knife to the gunfight if you want to, i'm sure you will be fine.

And please, having to cut somebody and watch them die in your arms isn't any better than shooting them in the gut and watching them moan as they bleed out on the pavement. It is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages)not against (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval)human instinct to kill. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome)



Okay let me bring some facts your way. Each state in the United States has had 2 or less school shootings, that seems to be on par with the rest of the world. Now, California is the outlier and has had about 7 school shootings. Now you might be asking yourself "Well how is California revelent?", well it's because California is widely known throughout the U.S. for it's strict policies on gun control. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Californi a)

My high school in Detroit, one of the cities with the highest amount of gun violence, did not have metal detectors and only had one police officer.

I'm done typing for now watch some bullshit. (http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/60509/detail/)

Allow me to pick apart your ridiculous arguments and 'facts' one by one.

Your first three links are pointless, as is your attempt to be dramatic with an Orwell quotation since no one has argued that Australia is free from gun crime , or that there haven't been school shootings. In fact I posted that their HAD. And mentioned the exact same one as you did.

Secondly, the example I cited regarding gun buy-back schemes was in Australia - post the Port Arthur Massacre, where it HAS led to a decrease in firearm death as demonstrated here:http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gun-deaths-in-rapid-decline-since-buyback/2006/12/13/1165685752421.html, here: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/gun-laws-credited-as-lifesavers/2007/04/22/1177180487704.html, and here: http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269t.html

Furthermore, the fact that it HAS worked here and HASN'T in various USA case-studies shows that there are other causes for violence (Such as a higher proportion of Americans being inherently deranged or predisposed to violence) rather than just gun ownership.

You think kids in America aren't scared of getting killed? Or getting shot? Maybe not in your precious gated estates but I think if you talked to some of the people at Virginia Tech, Columbine or any other site of a school shooting they would have some definite fears and concerns since they've experienced it first hand.

I suggest you re-read your own constitution. The passage you're looking for is "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." That's the second amendment. Tell me please, where exactly does every average Joe being able to purchase Uzi's and MAC10's fit into "A well regulated militia"? And this is still excluded all the various legal connotations from the 1700's in comparison to know. Such as this:

""In late-eighteenth-century parlance, bearing arms was a term of art with an obvious military and legal connotation. . . . As a review of the Library of Congress's data base of congressional proceedings in the revolutionary and early national periods reveals, the thirty uses of 'bear arms' and 'bearing arms' in bills, statutes, and debates of the Continental, Confederation, and United States' Congresses between 1774 and 1821 invariably occur in a context exclusively focused on the army or the militia."

From Uviller, H. Richard. & Merkel, William G.: The Militia and the Right to Arms, Or, How the Second Amendment Fell Silent , pp 23, 194. Duke University Press.

No one is claiming that getting rid of guns will stop crime, that's a ridiculous suggestion. But it is a hell of a lot harder to kill dozens of people in a lecture hall with a knife than it is with a legally bought and license machine gun. And as I've already shown restricting gun laws WITH the right amount of education and government co-operation will lead to a decrease in gun deaths and gun crime. It will never work in America until the various root causes of crime and massacres such as poverty and mental illness are dealt with properly. And when you get over that stupid mentality that "We have the right to bear arms".

Please Tell me how "Each state in the United States has had 2 or less school shooting" and tell me how "That seems to be on par with the rest of the world"? I counted 45 in the United States from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting and yes I understand that Wikipedia is hardly the ideal source, but it is useful for a list and none of those incidents is made up as revealed by cross referencing. And we have one in Australia. 21 million / 1 = 21 million. 300 million / 45 = 6.66 million. Around 3x more per capita. That figure skyrockets when we talk about casualties and not just not the simple number of incidents. I would hardly call that "On par" with the rest of the world.

Bury your head in the sand all you want, misquote your constitution all you want. The fact is you're going to keep seeing enormous amounts of gun crime and massacres until you realise guns are to blame. They aren't the only factor, but they are a huge one.

[Kaos]

You lived in America for 6 months and went to one school... Can you make a better judgment for your self than others who haven't been to the US? Of course. But 6 months in a country and only going to one school is really nothing compared to spending the entire 18 years of your life in the US and moving so much that you go to around 7 different schools for more than a year each (my self.) I was born in California and moved to Washington State when I was around 7 or 8 years old. I can tell you that out of my entire life span, I never once thought about my safety at school.


Valid points. Unfortunately we aren't talking about American school A compared to American school B. We're talking about American school A compared to Australian school A. In which your experiences are somewhat irrelevant.

I was merely pointing out that since I have attended both I am in a somewhat better position to judge than those who haven't. Does that make my opinion fact? No, it's still just my opinion. But you shouldn't simply throw it out because you disagree with it. You should say "Hey there's someone who's had a few experiences relevant to the discussion, I wonder what he has to say" instead of disregarding it.

[Bunglo]

Valid points. Unfortunately we aren't talking about American school A compared to American school B. We're talking about American school A compared to Australian school A. In which your experiences are somewhat irrelevant.

I was merely pointing out that since I have attended both I am in a somewhat better position to judge than those who haven't. Does that make my opinion fact? No, it's still just my opinion. But you shouldn't simply throw it out because you disagree with it. You should say "Hey there's someone who's had a few experiences relevant to the discussion, I wonder what he has to say" instead of disregarding it.

Well, I feel this thread is more about why school shootings happen more in America than every where else, not just Australia.

But I misread your earlier post, Kaos, I understand what you mean now. I was simply stating that it really doesn't matter what school you go to, there's always that possibility that something bad can happen. No matter how many rules and bans are put in place or how much security is at the school.

[Saden]

No one is claiming that getting rid of guns will stop crime, that's a ridiculous suggestion. But it is a hell of a lot harder to kill dozens of people in a lecture hall with a knife than it is with a legally bought and license machine gun.

If somebody wants to kill dozens of people in a lecture hall with a machine gun, you can bet your ass that it wont be a legal one, it'll be one smuggled into the country. So if you took away firearms from licensed gun owners, it wouldn't decrease gun crime by very much, if at all, because if criminals are willing to break the law doing what they do, what would make them get a machine gun legally? When they can get one illegally much cheaper and faster?

If somebody really wanted to, they could smuggle in a machine gun to Australia, go into a school and kill everyone they see, so it has almost NOTHING to do with licensed firearms, the problem lies with firearms being aquired illegally. There's not much you can do short of destroying every firearm on the planet.

[Kaos]

If somebody wants to kill dozens of people in a lecture hall with a machine gun, you can bet your ass that it wont be a legal one, it'll be one smuggled into the country. So if you took away firearms from licensed gun owners, it wouldn't decrease gun crime by very much, if at all, because if criminals are willing to break the law doing what they do, what would make them get a machine gun legally? When they can get one illegally much cheaper and faster?

If somebody really wanted to, they could smuggle in a machine gun to Australia, go into a school and kill everyone they see, so it has almost NOTHING to do with licensed firearms, the problem lies with firearms being aquired illegally. There's not much you can do short of destroying every firearm on the planet.

I'm not sure you understand how difficult it is to "Smuggle" weapons into countries, especially paranoid ones like Australia. Especially if you aren't connected (gangs etc.). But your wrong with your first statement. The Virginia Tech shooter legally purchased his guns, and the Columbine shooters bought guns off their friends who had legally purchased them.

If guns are legal, they are easily attainable. If they are easily attainable people are more likely to use them. So yes, there is a definite link between attainability and gun-crime. I wonder how many murders of passion or even massacres would have been prevented if guns had to be purchased illegally, through a criminal syndicate and cost 10X more.

[Bunglo]

Saden pretty much hit the nail on head, Kaos. Here are the steps to own a machine gun, legally, in the United States.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns_legalities.html

Each state is different for carrying/ using firearms though. And in some states, a citizen can not own a fully automatic weapon. But, as it's pretty obvious, there are a bunch of people who get them illegally and those are the people you want to look out for. If all guns were banned, the ones who use them for crime will still get them and use them for crime.

Think of this situation, you've been around guns your whole life. Your dad had one, his dad had one etc... Some law gets passed saying no citizen can own any firearms. You're sleeping and you here some glass break, you find a guy breaking into your house but he has a gun. You're pretty much f*cked if you don't do what he says if he hasn't already shot you. If you still could have that gun of yours, legally, you may be able to change the situation around for the better.

I know people have different views of it but I personally believe that if all guns were to be banned, gun crime wouldn't drop in the giant percentage some people think it would. It wouldn't make any since if it did because the ones who legally get guns use them for recreational purposes and/ or for protection, not robbing a liquor store.

[Bunglo]

If guns are legal, they are easily attainable. If they are easily attainable people are more likely to use them. So yes, there is a definite link between attainability and gun-crime. I wonder how many murders of passion or even massacres would have been prevented if guns had to be purchased illegally, through a criminal syndicate and cost 10X more.

It really doesn't matter how much a gun cost illegally because who ever is buying them is most likely using drug money to pay for it. It's a huge market and theres a reason why "thugs" can get certain guns in such large numbers.

[Saden]

Why would the gun cost 10x more? If anything, it'd be a lot less than to purchase it legally, and by smuggling, I'm not saying try to get it through the airport, no, how about taking a boat with anything you want to bring into the country.. and well, bring it in?

Ofcourse you'd need to worry about getting transportation from there but that's not the point, you've already smuggled a machine gun into Australia.


Also, the Columbine shooters, buying guns off their friends who legally purchased them, that doesn't make them buying the guns from their friends legal, did they have licenses and proper paperwork to buy the guns off their friends? Doubtful.

That's how some guns end up in criminal's hands, stolen/bought from people with licenses, but that doesn't make it any easier than just buying a completely illegal firearm.

[Kaos]

Why would the gun cost 10x more? If anything, it'd be a lot less than to purchase it legally, and by smuggling, I'm not saying try to get it through the airport, no, how about taking a boat with anything you want to bring into the country.. and well, bring it in?

Ofcourse you'd need to worry about getting transportation from there but that's not the point, you've already smuggled a machine gun into Australia.


Also, the Columbine shooters, buying guns off their friends who legally purchased them, that doesn't make them buying the guns from their friends legal, did they have licenses and proper paperwork to buy the guns off their friends? Doubtful.

That's how some guns end up in criminal's hands, stolen/bought from people with licenses, but that doesn't make it any easier than just buying a completely illegal firearm.

Yeah what, take a sailing boat from the USA to Australia and then expect not to get caught by the Navy or Coast Guard? I understand arguing guns with Americans is a bit useless, but regarding Bunglo's point "I'm not sure if gun crime would go down". All I know is that they came down hard on guns in Australia and gun crime radically diminished.

Also the ones who "Get them legally for hunting" argument is redundant when you take into account that uzi's and other submachine guns are also sold legally and are some of the most commonly traded. Who uses a machine gun to hunt deer?

Secondly, from you example with the "criminal breaking in". I think you'd find that if guns were illegal, break and enter druggy criminals would have a much harder time finding a gun then the status quo. Which involves them being able to purchase guns from Wal-Mart.

I'm waiting for that ridiculous 9/11 argument. "If guns were legal on planes someone on the plane could have shot the hijackers". If they were allowed on the plans, chances are the hijackers would be packing heat as well, yeah?

Btw I read that link and it scared the shit out of me. All I need to do to purchase a machine gun in America is fill out one form and pay a $200 tax?

[Saden]

Find a dealer locally who can assist you in all phases of the transfer. This should go beyond helping you fill out the paperwork: they should help you locate the gun if it isn't in stock and allow you to shoot the gun while your paperwork is being processed by the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms). It will usually take 4-6 weeks for the dealer to get the gun from another dealer if they don't already have it in stock (due to BATF paperwork delays).
Get your fingerprints (either by a police dept. or by a qualified fingerprinter, two imprints are needed) and two passport sized pictures taken. These will be used to perform a comprehensive criminal background check on you.
Have your local dealer help you fill out an "Application for Tax Paid Transfer And Registration Of Firearm" for, known as a "form 4".
You must have the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement (CLEO) officer that has jurisdiction over the municipality in which you live on the form 4. This could be the City Chief or the County Sheriff, for example. This is usually not a problem-- in machine gun friendly states. The form 4, CLEO signature, 2 fingerprint cards, 2 pictures, and a $200 check (your one-time transfer tax) must all be mailed to the BATF and an approved tax stamp returned before you may take possession of the gun. This may take anywhere from 2 to 5 months.



...Not just a form and $200.

Also, did I say you had to take a SAIL boat from the US to Australia? What if you got firearms from a country much closer? Last time I checked it wasn't illegal to drive a boat over water from place to place, why would the Navy or Coast Guard get involved?

[Kaos]

...Not just a form and $200.

Also, did I say you had to take a SAIL boat from the US to Australia? What if you got firearms from a country much closer? Last time I checked it wasn't illegal to drive a boat over water from place to place, why would the Navy or Coast Guard get involved?

Of course not. But it is illegal to travel to other countries without a visa. It's also illegal to bring in illegal items into that country. And it's also illegal not to declare any items that you bring in.

I think you've been watching too many gangster flicks...

[Saden]

Of course not. But it is illegal to travel to other countries without a visa. It's also illegal to bring in illegal items into that country. And it's also illegal not to declare any items that you bring in.

I think you've been watching too many gangster flicks...

That's why you don't go into a dock, or anywhere with people. How else do these people smuggle in illegal firearms into countries? Shove them up their assholes and hope for the best? No.

Also, I'm goin' to bed, hopefully we can continue this debate tomorrow. G'night.

[Kaos]

That's why you don't go into a dock, or anywhere with people. How else do these people smuggle in illegal firearms into countries? Shove them up their assholes and hope for the best? No.

Also, I'm goin' to bed, hopefully we can continue this debate tomorrow. G'night.

No, the smuggle them by bringing in shiploads of the contraband and paying off customs officials. They don't drive a tinny from Sydney to Los Angeles (America is the closest country to Australia with lax gun laws), land on some deserted beach (How many of those are around these days?) purchase a gun when they aren't a citizen, chuck it in their boat and then drive back, find another deserted beach, take their gun and then go on a rampage.

Since that is the case, in your opinion. Do you still believe someone like the Virginia Tech shooter would drive a boat across the Pacific Ocean to get a gun? Of course he's going to be more likely to do it if all he has to do is go down the road to Wal-Mart.

[Bunglo]

Thanks for the laughs guys :)

Now Kaos, you obviously read the link I provided but it seems like you skipped the whole background check part. If you've got a clean criminal history and the chief law enforcement officer sees no reason you would use it illegally, you can get one as long as you comply with the other rules. If you've got anything other than unpaid parking tickets, I wouldn't get your hopes up on a machine gun.

Here's a list of reasons why some one would want to own a machine gun from this (http://www.machinegundealer.com/canIown.html) website (and I agree with them.)

1. Why not?
2. They're kinda neat and fun to shoot. Ever try one?
3. Great Investment: The value continues to increase (supply v. demand)
4. Collector interest
5. They're legal (depending on which state you live in)
6. Who says you have shoot full auto. You can also shoot single shots !!
7. Very interesting mechanically

And no one said anything about hunting with a machine gun.

I've got a .22 rifle and 30-0-06 rifle that were my deceased Grandfathers. I (or my dad rather) have them because they're fun to shoot and they have sentimental value. Is that any reason to take my guns away? No and if some one tries, I'll f*ck them up ;)

[Bunglo]

No, the smuggle them by bringing in shiploads of the contraband and paying off customs officials. They don't drive a tinny from Sydney to Los Angeles (America is the closest country to Australia with lax gun laws), land on some deserted beach (How many of those are around these days?) purchase a gun when they aren't a citizen, chuck it in their boat and then drive back, find another deserted beach, take their gun and then go on a rampage.

Since that is the case, in your opinion. Do you still believe someone like the Virginia Tech shooter would drive a boat across the Pacific Ocean to get a gun? Of course he's going to be more likely to do it if all he has to do is go down the road to Wal-Mart.

Well, there is this place called... Cuba. Seems like a better place to go for guns (and drugs) than Australia because it's closer and that's already a very prominent "business" in Cuba. That's just me though.

And I wasn't aware you could purchase more than a small caliber rifle from walmart, I guess it's different in Australia?

[Kaos]

Well, there is this place called... Cuba. Seems like a better place to go for guns (and drugs) than Australia because it's closer and that's already a very prominent "business" in Cuba. That's just me though.

And I wasn't aware you could purchase more than a small caliber rifle from walmart, I guess it's different in Australia?

No sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about getting guns FROM America, for use in Australia.

[Kaos]

Also, I completely understand your reasons for owning guns. I've fired a few in my time and also find them pretty cool. However, I do believe that lax gun laws = higher gun casualties. See Australia vs. USA, Japan vs. USA, England vs. USA, France vs. USA, Germany vs. USA etc. And since it comes down to me having fun vs. lives being saved, I would rather err on the later, rather than say "It's my goddarn constitutional right (debatable) and I don't give a shit if people die, in fact I will kill them if they try."

[Bunglo]

No sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about getting guns FROM America, for use in Australia.

That makes more since lol.

I too agree that lax gun laws have a greater chance of gun casualties but I'm not too sure how you would really be able to improve the gun laws in the US because it varies from state to state and you would never be able to get the same gun laws passed in every state. There are always going to be those a-holes who can manage to get a gun, no matter how strict the laws are, if they really want to cause harm to people. It's a sad fact and there's really nothing we can do, well, reasonably at least.

[Saden]

No, you completely missed my point, maybe I didn't make it clear. The person who is going to be doing the shooting wont be doing the smuggling, somebody with all of the connections to do so would be doing it, but there would always be a way to have it done, all anyone needs to do is buy the smuggled firearms from the people who smuggled it in, whichever way they did it.

So if we banned firearms from a country, people would still get their hands on them from the existing guns in the country to people smuggling them in whatever way they can.

[Kaos]

No, you completely missed my point, maybe I didn't make it clear. The person who is going to be doing the shooting wont be doing the smuggling, somebody with all of the connections to do so would be doing it, but there would always be a way to have it done, all anyone needs to do is buy the smuggled firearms from the people who smuggled it in, whichever way they did it.

So if we banned firearms from a country, people would still get their hands on them from the existing guns in the country to people smuggling them in whatever way they can.

And tell me how many people who would currently go down the street to buy a gun, would now seek out illegal dealers if guns became illegal? All of them? Half? It wouldn't end gun crime, but it would definitely result in a decrease.

[Saden]

And tell me how many people who would currently go down the street to buy a gun, would now seek out illegal dealers if guns became illegal? All of them? Half? It wouldn't end gun crime, but it would definitely result in a decrease.

Ofcourse it would result in a decrease, but that decrease would not be very great. There are so many gun crimes every day, and almost all of them involve illegally purchased firearms so by banning guns would obviously decrease gun crimes by a little bit, but what happens what somebody breaks into your house with a gun, you cannot legally purchase a firearm in your country, and he wants to hurt you and your family. You're fucked. If you didn't have a gun in the first place, you're also fucked, that's todays society :/